Layering Synth Leads and Pads

[Dark Fiber]

Couldn't find a beginner topic on synth layering.
Perhaps nobody works the same and there are multiple ways to achieve a satisfactory end result, but it would be nice to shed some light on this topic.

How do you layer synths that play the same notes, so effectively use the same frequencies in the spectrum? Or how can you prevent synth leads/pads from masking each other, considering that most synth sounds these days are (almost) full spectrum?

[rubez]

Should be very simple. Put your pad down then choose a good lead that cuts through it. Pads and leads don't tend to gel anyway.

[Unaspected]

Couldn't find a beginner topic on synth layering.
Perhaps nobody works the same and there are multiple ways to achieve a satisfactory end result, but it would be nice to shed some light on this topic.

How do you layer synths that play the same notes, so effectively use the same frequencies in the spectrum? Or how can you prevent synth leads/pads from masking each other, considering that most synth sounds these days are (almost) full spectrum?

I'm not sure if these are two questions?: 1) To layer two sounds so that they become one. 2) To process a pad and a lead so that they sound separate.

There are several techniques for both but I'll suggest just one for each with compression:

1) The easiest thing to do would be to use compression to squash the two sounds together, driving both of them into one compressor so that they are folding over each other. Maybe a fast attack and moderate release with a moderate ratio and enough of a threshold that the sound is most always triggering compression - then increase the attack if you want more of a lead.

2) You can create separation using compression as well by using different settings. Typically, I would apply a higher ratio to a pad and really saturate the sound. This way it can be mixed low whilst still being heard. A lead requires less saturation and more shaping to help it sit - as before, opening up the attack, maybe a moderate ratio and higher threshold than the pad: for which you might want a fast attack, longer release, low threshold and high ratio.

[Maykie]

How do you layer synths that play the same notes, so effectively use the same frequencies in the spectrum?

There is nothing wrong with sharing same frequencies ( low-end is the only exception here ). Don't try to "keep" sounds separated in specific frequencies - it will always sound very unnatural.

The goal of layering is to make few sounds sound as one so you wan't them to blend anyway.

If mixing pad and lead is what you meant then my advice would be to let one sound dominate the other. You can push pad back by cutting high frequencies and making it darker and bring lead forward by doing the opposite.

[ramseysounds]

The question you are really asking is 'how do I mix'.
This is something that can only be gotten better at by practice practice practice and experience. Watch YouTube tutorials from respected people (not bedroom producers spouting crap).
Forget compressors and fancy equipment, learn the basics with just EQ, panning and balance.
IMO.

[Dark Fiber]

Alright, so in summary:
- Compression to squash them together
- Compression with different settings
- EQ with different settings

How about using the stereo spectrum to combine multiple leads and/or pads?
How about sidechaining to combine multiple leads and/or pads?
How about using the ADSR's on the synths to combine multiple leads and/or pads?
And of course there is also panning.

[ramseysounds]

How about learn how to mix?

[SparkySpark]

First off: some great advice in this thread.

My advice would be to try layering in XPand!2. It's a five euro or so sampler player during BF, and it has four slots so you can very, very easily layer sounds. I have a bunch of synths, but typically use Xpand!2 quite a lot. There is also onboard effects with sends for each layer, plus individual panning and of course volume. I for one wouldn't use compression for this, as it takes some of the life out of the patches.

[himalaya]

Couldn't find a beginner topic on synth layering.
Perhaps nobody works the same and there are multiple ways to achieve a satisfactory end result, but it would be nice to shed some light on this topic.

How do you layer synths that play the same notes, so effectively use the same frequencies in the spectrum? Or how can you prevent synth leads/pads from masking each other, considering that most synth sounds these days are (almost) full spectrum?

Is this a real problem you are experiencing, or is this a rhetorical question, as in, what would happen 'if' you were to layer a pad and a lead? I'm asking this since in general a pad and lead occupy a different place in the mix and personally, I've never experienced any big issues when mixing the two which would require some deeper thinking (or overthinking). If you have to turn to some complex compression settings in order to mix a pad and a lead sound then you are doing something wrong.

If you have an audio example you can share, it would be easier to help you arrive at a suitable mixing technique to solve the issue.

If you do experience issues where a pad and a lead create some sort of a clash, and you can hear that clash, maybe by hearing some 'muddiness', some kind of boost in some specific frequency range, then the simplest technique is to use an equaliser to separate the pad from the lead. Perhaps the pad is too bright and gets in the way of the bright lead. Or perhaps the lead is dark and 'heavy' and cross-bleeds into the dark pad you have in your track....in every case, EQ can help very quickly. How? This is where the art of mixing comes into play. You have to learn how to mix.

However, an even more basic approach is to turn to the sound source itself. Go to the synth that is playing the pad and the lead and see if you can edit the sound right at the source: the synth itself. Maybe all you have to do is lower the LPF cutoff on the pad, and therefore make it more dark, which might create more space for the lead. Or perhaps you need to apply some HPF to the lead to further separate it from the pad. But even this approach of using filters in the synth are about equalisation.

When you go to the source, the synth, you could also look at the effects that are in use. Very often effects applied on the 'synth' level can take too much space in the mix. A preset with nice delays, reverbs, phasers, etc might sound very nice in isolation, but in the mix, such effects can create issues. They can simply 'eat' into your 'mix space'.

So take a step back. Don't over think it. Apply basic mixing techniques of:

1. Go to the source. Try the filters in the synth itself. Try to re-balance the effect mix in the synth, or remove some effects completely (long, full delays for example).

2. Then, try to equalise what you perceive to be the problem areas.

3. Compression? Don't do it. Not unless you want a specific artistic compression effect. But don't use compression to fix what can be fixed with techniques outlined in points 1 and 2.

[SparkySpark]

So take a step back. Don't over think it.
...

Lots of good advice. FWIW, since I posted my last post, I substituted a piano for an electric piano-(ish) plus a pad(-ish). So, I started with an electric piano and a typical pad, noticed the piano was too boring and the pad too slow and too imprecise. So I tried a few other combos and also played with different panning and different amount of reverb for each of the two sound sources. Since I was using XPand!2, I made my changes very fast (I don't want searching for sound to be in the way of the creative process - I want it to be part of it, and so, it must be fast). Soon enough I got a combined sound I liked, and which was better than just one of the two patches I chose.

As Himalaya said, don't overdo it. Just have fun.

[Azbest]

IMO it's better to have one impressive, heavy synth in the front than having two okay-ish synths playing together. Sidechain one with the other maybe.

[SparkySpark]

IMO it's better to have one impressive, heavy synth in the front than having two okay-ish synths playing together.

Oh yes, of course, especially if you want it as a lead or something otherwise prominent.

BTW, maybe I was a bit pushy about XPand!2, which isn't a super synth. I mainly thought of it because it's great for layering and because it's so affordable. Personally, I use Pigments as the impressive foreground synth and less noticeable synths (XPand!2, Lynx and many others) for the fillers. In my book, this means the less prominent synths won't compete as much, and let the impressive synth stand out. Ten again, my arrangements are quite busy, wall-of-soundish.

[tbugz]

There is nothing wrong with sharing same frequencies ( low-end is the only exception here ). Don't try to "keep" sounds separated in specific frequencies - it will always sound very unnatural.

The goal of layering is to make few sounds sound as one so you wan't them to blend anyway.

If mixing pad and lead is what you meant then my advice would be to let one sound dominate the other. You can push pad back by cutting high frequencies and making it darker and bring lead forward by doing the opposite.

I know it's an older thread but worth continuing, so will add my experiences. Face it, depending on one's type of music lead&pad layer is very appealing, especially for newcomers or certain live situations. If any of you remember, in the 'golden age' of hardware romplers (and even the flagship synths of the time) from Korg, Roland, Yamaha etc, they all had huge selections of layered lead/pad patches. From the cliche piano or guitar w strings, to more unusual two instrument layers spanning the keyboard. They probably still do! (Personally, I found the Triton's nylon guitar w strings seductive and the best of the bunch.)

Anyway, they tended to be useless for recording as presets.Now days if I want to do something like that I assign separate tracks for the lead and pad and I always record them dry. Like @Maykie, I'm not fixated on freq overlap. More important imo are spacial placement, relative volume, and maybe most importantly, applied effects balance for each instrument that work well together.

There is no general rule on EQ and compression because each combo has unique qualities and you have to ask, "what is it about this layer that makes it special?". I send the tracks to a bus and then treat is as any other single instrument in the overall mix in terms of compression and EQ. Depending on the situation I may chose to sculpt and balance the other tracks around the lead/pad to showcase it. It depends why you chose to layer in the first place.

[Synthack]

.........

[SparkySpark]

If any of you remember, in the 'golden age' of hardware romplers (and even the flagship synths of the time) from Korg, Roland, Yamaha etc, they all had huge selections of layered lead/pad patches. From the cliche piano or guitar w strings, to more unusual two instrument layers spanning the keyboard.

Good point! Who can forget the E-MU Proteus patch #16 - "Heaven". Its piano/choir combo was used on a number of albums and tv scores. As I recall it, the Proteus let each patch consist of two instruments, thus greatly expanding on its sonic palette (remember it only had 8MB of memory for its samples). I don't remember anyone complaining about conflicting freqs or the need for compression at the time.