KVR Audio

Warmonger · Post by **Warmonger** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 1:20 pm

Acolmiztli wrote:
Warmonger wrote:but the performance argument is meaningless.
Really?? Well... I downloaded the SynthMaker beta and rendered the example synth to a VSTi.

Ableton Live kept crashing.

I had to delete the .dll before it would start working again.

One singular VSTi brought my rewire host to its knees... no the performance argument is not meaningless.

A couple points about this experience of yours:

1) You're using beta software, and relatively new software at that (unlike the Synthedit betas).

2) I was talking about performance, as in CPU and memory requirements, not stability. If you read my post, you should have noticed that I did say stability is still in the favor of Reason. The performance argument is irrelevant because anyone who doesn't use VST(i)s in Reason would not see any performance hit, and besides, running a VSTi inside Reason would be at least as efficient as running it Rewired.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 1:34 pm

Warmonger wrote: 2) I was talking about performance, as in CPU and memory requirements, not stability. If you read my post, you should have noticed that I did say stability is still in the favor of Reason. The performance argument is irrelevant because anyone who doesn't use VST(i)s in Reason would not see any performance hit, and besides, running a VSTi inside Reason would be at least as efficient as running it Rewired.

A VST reverb (such as Ambience, one of my favs) uses WAY more CPU than RV7000.

I realise that if you choose not to use the VSTs this is no problem, obviously. But simply changing the programs code to accept them could introduce problems, I would think.

And regarding VSTs, virtually EVERY problem I have encountered in a wide range of music software has boiled down to a VST plugin. Not a popular idea around here, I know, but VSTs can be real trouble.

Reason never crashes, period (not on my system, anyway

)

Warmonger · Post by **Warmonger** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 1:58 pm

headquest wrote:A VST reverb (such as Ambience, one of my favs) uses WAY more CPU than RV7000.

Yes, but I don't think that's a fair comparison. RV7000 is great (honestly my favorite reverb, closely followed by Ambience), but you can't get the exact Ambience sound out of it. The Scream4 Tape setting is great for compressing/warming, but it can't make the exact same sound as, say, Kjaerhus' GPP-1. And in the end, with hosted VST's, you get the choice of low CPU in an equivalent Reason device or the sound of a particular VST.

Again, I don't want VST hosting in Reason if it takes up a substantial amount of developer time, that could be put to better use improving other aspects of the program.

There are good reasons why Reason shouldn't host VST's, but I just don't think performance is one of them.

TeeLangSun · Post by **TeeLangSun** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:09 pm

headquest wrote:
rbet wrote:Well, VST support wouldn't hurt, that's for sure...
The more I think this through, the more I think that VST support probably WOULD hurt.

As I said earler (? in this thread) I can run more than 30 devices in Reason without the CPU giving out. But 5 VST instruments/effects can cause real problems. There seems to be something in the VST department that makes them very CPU hungry, and probably the BEST thing about Reason is its efficiency.

I realise that for somebody purely reading a sheet full of specifications won't get that. But try out some real tests, and you'll find that Reason makes a lot of things possible that simply can't happen using VSTs (unless you have a host that has a freeze function... and constantly use it!)

It would definitely worry me that VST inclusion would damage Reason's efficiency beyond repair (not to mention its stability).

The other poit to reiterate is that Reason users tend to share files across the net. Using VSTs makes this a no-go area unless you happen to know that absolutely everyone else on the site has identical VSTs to you (like that's ever going to happen!)

The higher quality stuff in Reason uses the same kind of CPU as quality stuff in VST. Malstrom, Vocoder, the RV-7000 Reverb are all fairly CPU intensive. The older FX are all of less quality and are all extremely CPU friendly. Samplers aren't CPU intensive in any sequencer, Reason or VST. I've had 30 going in Orion, all with a dedicated VST compressor on their inserts. That was 4 years ago on a 600Mhz machine. The thing is, on the VST side, there are plugins which truly do eat CPU for breakfast, but not all of them.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:26 pm

Warmonger wrote:
headquest wrote:A VST reverb (such as Ambience, one of my favs) uses WAY more CPU than RV7000.
Yes, but I don't think that's a fair comparison. RV7000 is great (honestly my favorite reverb, closely followed by Ambience), but you can't get the exact Ambience sound out of it. The Scream4 Tape setting is great for compressing/warming, but it can't make the exact same sound as, say, Kjaerhus' GPP-1. And in the end, with hosted VST's, you get the choice of low CPU in an equivalent Reason device or the sound of a particular VST.

Again, I don't want VST hosting in Reason if it takes up a substantial amount of developer time, that could be put to better use improving other aspects of the program.

There are good reasons why Reason shouldn't host VST's, but I just don't think performance is one of them.

We obviously like the same stuff! I have all the Kjaerhus plugs and love 'em (and compared to other VSTs I've found them very stable and low on CPU overhead, so no complaints at all there!)

Ambience is "special" in many ways, including both the sound and the amount of grunt needed to get that sound. If I want the ambience sound I tend to use it...
... destructively in Audition (although the four reverbs within Audition - especially the two convolution based ones - are all superb - my favourites of all

)
...or in Tracktion where I "freeze" it.

In Live I tend to use its own reverb quite a lot - very nice I think.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:34 pm

TeeLangSun wrote: The higher quality stuff in Reason uses the same kind of CPU as quality stuff in VST. Malstrom, Vocoder, the RV-7000 Reverb are all fairly CPU intensive.

I dont know factual specs on this (do you?) but I've certainly had multiple instances of these plugs up and running no trouble. I don't think they really drain the system like the worse CPU-hog VSTs (of which Ambience is famously one!)

The thing is, on the VST side, there are plugins which truly do eat CPU for breakfast, but not all of them.

That's a fair point. I have used VSTs which *dont* swallow all my CPU (Kjaerhus stuff - classic and golden - is outstanding in this respect).

Regarding the issue of Reason hosting VSTs though, I would be against for a variety of reasons... but ultimately because I have other programs in my set up for doing this. I would rather see the Props devote their energy to further improving Reason within its existing paradigm

(ughh! sorry for using that word!)

GoaFruity · Post by **GoaFruity** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:11 pm

Reason with VST loses all of its reasons.

Reason is powerfull without VST and its very stable and non-cpu hunger.Want VST? Rewire Reason on FL Studio.

Spe3D · Post by **Spe3D** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:13 pm

GoaFruity wrote:Reason with VST loses all of its reasons.
Reason is powerfull without VST and its very stable and non-cpu hunger.Want VST? Rewire Reason on FL Studio.

Yeah! but you think FL Suxxx - and after reading most of your Suxx posts - who gives a toss what you think.

I think you should stay in the box with reason

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

D3StRoY · Post by **D3StRoY** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:57 pm

Well to be honest i will only use reason again when it has vst support, i also dont like the standard quality of reason.. sounds a bit non eq'ed to me.

So for now ill stay with logic platinum

But i'm also curious how reason 3 will be !

GoaFruity · Post by **GoaFruity** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:01 pm

Spe3D wrote:
GoaFruity wrote:Reason with VST loses all of its reasons.
Reason is powerfull without VST and its very stable and non-cpu hunger.Want VST? Rewire Reason on FL Studio.
Yeah! but you think FL Suxxx - and after reading most of your Suxx posts - who gives a toss what you think.

I think you should stay in the box with reason

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

shut up dude , you dont even know what you´re talking about...

GoaFruity · Post by **GoaFruity** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:06 pm

D3StRoY wrote:Well to be honest i will only use reason again when it has vst support, i also dont like the standard quality of reason.. sounds a bit non eq'ed to me.

So for now ill stay with logic platinum

But i'm also curious how reason 3 will be !

yes in that case isnt so powerful , you only have the 2band parametric EQ , and if you want more bands youve got to add more EQs.Well maybe Reason 3 will fix that...

Sicklecell666 · Post by **Sicklecell666** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:06 pm

GoaFruity wrote:
Spe3D wrote:
GoaFruity wrote:Reason with VST loses all of its reasons.
Reason is powerfull without VST and its very stable and non-cpu hunger.Want VST? Rewire Reason on FL Studio.
Yeah! but you think FL Suxxx - and after reading most of your Suxx posts - who gives a toss what you think.

I think you should stay in the box with reason

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)
shut up dude , you dont even know what you´re talking about...

You're the idiot here, so STFU already & quit spamming the threads with your bullshit.

Show some respect or hit the road.

GoaFruity · Post by **GoaFruity** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:08 pm

Sicklecell666 wrote:
GoaFruity wrote:
Spe3D wrote:
GoaFruity wrote:Reason with VST loses all of its reasons.
Reason is powerfull without VST and its very stable and non-cpu hunger.Want VST? Rewire Reason on FL Studio.
Yeah! but you think FL Suxxx - and after reading most of your Suxx posts - who gives a toss what you think.

I think you should stay in the box with reason

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)
shut up dude , you dont even know what you´re talking about...
You're the idiot here, so STFU already & quit spamming the threads with your bullshit.

Show some respect or hit the road.

im cool here and u?

and btw whos spamming?

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:16 pm

GoaFruity wrote:
D3StRoY wrote:Well to be honest i will only use reason again when it has vst support, i also dont like the standard quality of reason.. sounds a bit non eq'ed to me.

So for now ill stay with logic platinum

But i'm also curious how reason 3 will be !
yes in that case isnt so powerful , you only have the 2band parametric EQ , and if you want more bands youve got to add more EQs.Well maybe Reason 3 will fix that...

Yes it will - already announced.

Reason isn't meant to replace Logic/Cubase/etc though - it's there to complement them.

To prove the point, when you sign up as a beta tester for R3 the form asks you to identify the ReWire host you run Reason with

.

And of course that is also precisely why Resons doesn't - and never will - need to host VSTs itself.

D3StRoY · Post by **D3StRoY** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:26 pm

headquest wrote:Yes it will - already announced.

Reason isn't meant to replace Logic/Cubase/etc though - it's there to complement them.

To prove the point, when you sign up as a beta tester for R3 the form asks you to identify the ReWire host you run Reason with .

And of course that is also precisely why Resons doesn't - and never will - need to host VSTs itself.

Thats true but for the people with a system thats not powerfull rewire is a hard thing to do. It takes a lot of cpu if you have a very big "quality" track.

Ill just wait and see it for myself

I hope its gonna be good enough though.

It's time for REASON 3 beta testing ...