Arturia V8 Collection or Syntronik 2 Max?

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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jamcat
KVRian
1382 posts since 2 Sep, 2019

Post Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:35 am

WasteLand wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:52 am
aha found the quote of Venus Theory: "Piano V is actually based on the Pianoteq engine if I remember correctly!"

well, some inside information.....
I don’t know who or what Venus Theory is, but I own both Pianoteq Studio 7 and Piano V2, and I can assure you there is no Pianoteq in Piano V.

Pianoteq is amazing. Piano V is… interesting. You can make some interesting synthy piano sounds with it, especially with the glass piano. But unlike Pianoteq, there is nothing remotely realistic about Piano V.

It was actually Piano V that led me to check out Pianoteq and ultimately buy it when I realized I had to have it in my life.

I think the other models V-Collection has in common with Pianoteq (clavinet & Rhodes) and are comparable, though. I actually like to layer the Arturia and Pianoteq models together. Surprising it works and sounds better and fuller than either by themselves.
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP

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WasteLand
KVRAF
2221 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Post Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:53 am

jamcat wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:35 am
WasteLand wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:52 am
aha found the quote of Venus Theory: "Piano V is actually based on the Pianoteq engine if I remember correctly!"

well, some inside information.....
I don’t know who or what Venus Theory is, but I own both Pianoteq Studio 7 and Piano V2, and I can assure you there is no Pianoteq in Piano V.

Pianoteq is amazing. Piano V is… interesting. You can make some interesting synthy piano sounds with it, especially with the glass piano. But unlike Pianoteq, there is nothing remotely realistic about Piano V.

It was actually Piano V that led me to check out Pianoteq and ultimately buy it when I realized I had to have it in my life.

I think the other models V-Collection has in common with Pianoteq (clavinet & Rhodes) and are comparable, though. I actually like to layer the Arturia and Pianoteq models together. Surprising it works and sounds better and fuller than either by themselves.
it is a who, quite known, but does not matter.
it seems, by that statement, and the link, that Pianteq has supplied some DSP for Piano V.
i am not sure of course.

Pianoteq is of course very very different than Piano V2. you see more brands/developers that make code for other brands/developers. does not mean of course, the same possibilities.... and sometimes only a very basic distallation...

i can be short; you are right, i think..., the things you can with Pianoteq are quite impressive, but for me, not a piano player, o well Pianoteq gives you possibilies that makes a prepared piano (if i am not mistaken).

interesting! about layering, i can understand that, if you hear a real piano, it has so many, how will a phrase it..... angles of harmonics??? within itself, and the room. it is not an expert term...

i can't judge Pianoteq, did demo it once, long time ago, so no real recollection. demoed it? or played with it by someone else. don't remember...

within the Arturia realm, Piano V2 stands, i think.

Pianoteq has a quite different, and focused approach. i sometimes look at the website.. perhaps someday...

but how i work now, and MSoundFactory has a great piano, that you can mangle, not realistic perhaps, i am focused on other software.

but i wouldn't be surprised if Pianoteq did some coding, or licensed some of their code...

well not important. they are, even when it is true, 2 different approaches, with Pianoteq as the most focused, i repeat, approach, also for, o well, a lot of things..
take me as apple as reed-son as flesh-icon, immediately
shits the wise man. hero and blind. take me as
stick as tongue as dog... Music & Soundscraping

Caine123
KVRAF
6775 posts since 5 Aug, 2009

Post Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:22 am

Of course arturia collection. I would nearly always prefer full synths instead of romplers...
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jamcat
KVRian
1382 posts since 2 Sep, 2019

Post Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:53 am

Gadget Fiend wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:13 pm
jamcat wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:32 pm
Also, the Syntronik Solina doesn’t even sound like a Solina. Arturia is the only one who has ever gotten the Solina right, though many have tried.
Have you heard the GeForce Strings Machines plugin? It's all sample-based (and is basically an audio encyclopedia of string machines). While I agree that the Arturia Solina sounds fantastic, the GeForce version is quite good as well and has a killer built in phaser (plus the ability to layer different string machines).
I have heard it, and it’s even further from a Solina than the one in Syntronik. I used to have a Solina in my studio, and I know exactly how one should sound. It doesn’t sound like a synth at all, as it’s actually an electric organ. It doesn’t have a phaser. I guess because Shine On You Crazy Diamond has a phaser people got this idea that it’s part of the sound. But it’s not.

The Solina is all about the chorus ensemble, and it has to be done exactly right. And that’s where they all fail. That’s why VSM is so far off. IK got the basic chorusing close, but it’s way too dirty and sounds flat to me. The model is included in MixBox so you can really examine it. Try running the Arturia Solina through the MixBox ensemble with the Solina’s ensemble off, then switch them and you’ll see what I’m talking about.
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP

Lotuz2019
KVRian
1228 posts since 26 Apr, 2019 from Netherlands

Post Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:34 am

Speaking of the Solina, does the Horn Dry ASE preset sound right in Syntronik 2? In Syntronik Deluxe it sounds exactly the same as the Trumpet Dry ASE preset.

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waltercruz
KVRAF
2144 posts since 4 Dec, 2011 from Brasília, Brazil

Post Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:46 am

jamcat wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:35 am
WasteLand wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:52 am
aha found the quote of Venus Theory: "Piano V is actually based on the Pianoteq engine if I remember correctly!"

well, some inside information.....
I don’t know who or what Venus Theory is, but I own both Pianoteq Studio 7 and Piano V2, and I can assure you there is no Pianoteq in Piano V.
Well, although Pianoteq is way better than Arturia Piano V2... I checked some things with an hex editor myself and thereis really a lot of Pianoteq mentions on binary code in the Arturia instrument, in case, found most of it on file /Library/Arturia/Piano V2/resources/libmdengine.dylib (i'm on Mac, obviously) .

I was skeptical about it and now i'm quite surprised.

Image

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WasteLand
KVRAF
2221 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Post Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:54 am

waltercruz wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:46 am
jamcat wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:35 am
WasteLand wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:52 am
aha found the quote of Venus Theory: "Piano V is actually based on the Pianoteq engine if I remember correctly!"

well, some inside information.....
I don’t know who or what Venus Theory is, but I own both Pianoteq Studio 7 and Piano V2, and I can assure you there is no Pianoteq in Piano V.
Well, although Pianoteq is way better than Arturia Piano V2... I checked some things with an hex editor myself and thereis really a lot of Pianoteq mentions on binary code in the Arturia instrument, in case, found most of it on file /Library/Arturia/Piano V2/resources/libmdengine.dylib (i'm on Mac, obviously) .

I was skeptical about it and now i'm quite surprised.
i think it is quite common that developers, even competitors, supply code, like cytomic for ableton (but not the high quality, or i don't the drop, but the 'lesser' modelled?? filters), or softube for ableton, or softube of native instruments (and reason). most of the times it is known.

sometimes they license it, perhaps, or they code a part of it, the DSP part. i don't know.

and well, Arturia and Modartt are both french companies, maybe they know eachother.

also not uncommon, people know eachother... so....

but this seems like a 'proof', of what; they supplied the DSP code, or licensed it? (which can be the same, but i guess, the difference is obvious, or not; the made the DSP code specially for Arturia, or they licensed existing DSP code...).

well. nice to know (?).

perhaps Piano V2 is a temptation for Pianoteq, ones you discover emulation, you want more...
take me as apple as reed-son as flesh-icon, immediately
shits the wise man. hero and blind. take me as
stick as tongue as dog... Music & Soundscraping

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4damind
KVRAF
5502 posts since 17 Aug, 2004 from Berlin, Germany

Post Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:40 am

Never heard of Syntronik, probably some mediocre nonsense from IKM again.
Arturia certainly doesn't win the prize for the best emulations you can find on the planet right now, but the V-Collection is certainly a good compromise between a high number of well-known synth emulations and good quality.
I would give the V-Collection the preference any day. 200€ is also an acceptable price.

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jamcat
KVRian
1382 posts since 2 Sep, 2019

Post Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:55 am

That’s interesting. You’ll note that all Pianoteq references in the assembly are Pianoteq 2.x.

So it looks like Arturia may have bought a very old Pianoteq engine that Modartt retired long ago. I do recall early Pianoteq resembling my comments above about Piano V: cool for synthy piano stuff, but not very realistic.

Of course the Pianoteq of today in version 7 is nothing like the Pianoteq of a decade ago.
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP

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waltercruz
KVRAF
2144 posts since 4 Dec, 2011 from Brasília, Brazil

Post Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:42 pm

WasteLand wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:54 am

but this seems like a 'proof', of what; they supplied the DSP code, or licensed it? (which can be the same, but i guess, the difference is obvious, or not; the made the DSP code specially for Arturia, or they licensed existing DSP code...).
well, still curious, so...
/Library/Arturia ᐅ find . -name libmdengine.dylib
./Stage-73 V/resources/libmdengine.dylib
./Analog Lab 4/resources/Piano V/resources/libmdengine.dylib
./Analog Lab 4/resources/Stage-73 V/resources/libmdengine.dylib
./Analog Lab 4/resources/Clavinet V/resources/libmdengine.dylib
./Analog Lab 4/resources/Piano V2/resources/libmdengine.dylib
./Analog Lab 4/resources/Wurli V2/resources/libmdengine.dylib
./Analog Lab V/resources/Piano V/resources/libmdengine.dylib
./Analog Lab V/resources/Stage-73 V/resources/libmdengine.dylib
./Analog Lab V/resources/Clavinet V/resources/libmdengine.dylib
./Analog Lab V/resources/Piano V2/resources/libmdengine.dylib
./Analog Lab V/resources/Wurli V2/resources/libmdengine.dylib
./Analog Lab V/resources/Stage-73 V2/resources/libmdengine.dylib
./Piano V2/resources/libmdengine.dylib
./Wurli V2/resources/libmdengine.dylib
./Stage-73 V2/resources/libmdengine.dylib
And all thes files contains references to Modartt (won't post more prints because I'm already derailing the thread too much). So, it seems that the pianos/electric pianos and clavinet on V-Collection are made by some kind of partnership/agreement/licensing from Pianoteq.

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waltercruz
KVRAF
2144 posts since 4 Dec, 2011 from Brasília, Brazil

Post Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:43 pm

... and about the subject of the topic, V-Collection is the way to go! :)

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WasteLand
KVRAF
2221 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Post Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:58 pm

waltercruz wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:43 pm
... and about the subject of the topic, V-Collection is the way to go! :)
i agree.

and i mentioned it earlier, why code something yourself, although Arturia is pretty capable (i know the long time discussion, that i sometimes do not get.. that you need an EQ, after an Arturia synth, well, never needed it... can be another workflow, need, wish, genre, style, etc..), or more than to make emulations. but there is enough 'history' that companies, use code from others, licensed of course. if there is already a company that can supply it...

native instruments in a way, did that, but forgot one thing; the same framework (although i guess there is one, but not as Arturia does it...).

enough. only interesting that, well Microsoft has supplied code for apple.... and you think, huh, they work together..

i haven't a dislike for IKM, by the way, on the contrary, but a 'real' emulation gives more control, and it also depends; preset person, or programming from scratch person (i do the latter, i am the latter..).
take me as apple as reed-son as flesh-icon, immediately
shits the wise man. hero and blind. take me as
stick as tongue as dog... Music & Soundscraping

BenfordLaw
KVRist
153 posts since 12 Nov, 2020

Post Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:11 pm

jamcat wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:35 am
WasteLand wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:52 am
aha found the quote of Venus Theory: "Piano V is actually based on the Pianoteq engine if I remember correctly!"

well, some inside information.....
I don’t know who or what Venus Theory is, but I own both Pianoteq Studio 7 and Piano V2, and I can assure you there is no Pianoteq in Piano V.

Pianoteq is amazing. Piano V is… interesting. You can make some interesting synthy piano sounds with it, especially with the glass piano. But unlike Pianoteq, there is nothing remotely realistic about Piano V.

It was actually Piano V that led me to check out Pianoteq and ultimately buy it when I realized I had to have it in my life.

I think the other models V-Collection has in common with Pianoteq (clavinet & Rhodes) and are comparable, though. I actually like to layer the Arturia and Pianoteq models together. Surprising it works and sounds better and fuller than either by themselves.
You're wrong. If you open up Piano V in a hex editor and search for 'Pianoteq' you find numerous instances of it. It's a very old version of Pianoteq (i.e. when Pianoteq wasn't anywhere near as good as it is now.)
I will try to find you some examples and post them up, of where I found the text - somebody else said this before and I searched for it myself in the Piano V dll.

Edit: sorry - I hadn't read all the replies under your post when I responded! I see that others have found the same thing.

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jamcat
KVRian
1382 posts since 2 Sep, 2019

Post Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:26 pm

BenfordLaw wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:11 pm
jamcat wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:35 am
WasteLand wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:52 am
aha found the quote of Venus Theory: "Piano V is actually based on the Pianoteq engine if I remember correctly!"

well, some inside information.....
I don’t know who or what Venus Theory is, but I own both Pianoteq Studio 7 and Piano V2, and I can assure you there is no Pianoteq in Piano V.

Pianoteq is amazing. Piano V is… interesting. You can make some interesting synthy piano sounds with it, especially with the glass piano. But unlike Pianoteq, there is nothing remotely realistic about Piano V.

It was actually Piano V that led me to check out Pianoteq and ultimately buy it when I realized I had to have it in my life.

I think the other models V-Collection has in common with Pianoteq (clavinet & Rhodes) and are comparable, though. I actually like to layer the Arturia and Pianoteq models together. Surprising it works and sounds better and fuller than either by themselves.
You're wrong. If you open up Piano V in a hex editor and search for 'Pianoteq' you find numerous instances of it. It's a very old version of Pianoteq (i.e. when Pianoteq wasn't anywhere near as good as it is now.)
I will try to find you some examples and post them up, of where I found the text - somebody else said this before and I searched for it myself in the Piano V dll.

Edit: sorry - I hadn't read all the replies under your post when I responded! I see that others have found the same thing.
Then you also saw where I came to the same conclusion.

The thing to keep in mind though, is Pianoteq 2 and Pianoteq 7 are completely different, and share only the name in common. When you talk about "Pianoteq", you are talking about it as it is today. A decade old engine that has been completely replaced is irrelevant, and is not Pianoteq at all as we know it today. So for all intents and purposes, no, you are not going to find any Pianoteq in Piano V, and if you get Piano V thinking it is going to be a suitable substitute for Pianoteq in any way, you are going to be very sad.
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP

Meester Smeeeth
KVRist
37 posts since 26 Jul, 2005

Post Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:05 am

Syntronik vs Arturia V Collection is an easy one; Arturia all day.

But depending on your crossgrade/upgrade pricing IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 Max might be worth comparing as it's currently on sale and then it's a very different comparison.

TS3.5M gets you a (probably) better B3, loads of nice sampled Pianos, loads of Electric Pianos, Arguably a better Mellotron, and a ton of other stuff including amplitude, all of T-Racks, MixBox, SampleTank 4+ all the libraries, MODO Bass + MODO Drum.

AVC8 is worth having alongside TS3.5M. Syntronik is actually one of the least compelling IK products IMO due to the amount of space it takes up, limited amount of edibility and relatively slow loading times compared to modelled synths.

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