One Synth Challenge #154: Triple Cheese by u-he (Results pending.)

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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MilksterX
KVRist
126 posts since 27 Oct, 2020

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:25 am

In order to get a kick that sounds real you need to use DC on CSO1 and leave cso2 and 3 off although you could damp it a bit. But I prefer raw DC. Envelope 1 needs to be a very short decay 200ms in order to stop repetitions. No sus, and a very small release to stop any note off additional clicks.

Work on getting a single clear click sound to begin with.

Then boost with a shelf EQ it at around 90hz and scoop out frequencies with a notch band at around 270hz and roll off the with a lowpass at 2.5khz.
Now add another EQ and roll off with a highpass curve between 20-30hz.

This should give you the frequency spectrum of a solid kick sound.

In order to get that a more punchier kick sound you're going to need an all pass filter or automate a slightly resonant curve with an EQ - from 1khz down to 60hz . Think there's a few free ones that do continuous sweeps such as allpassphase vst. Results aren't quite the same with an EQ and it's a lot of work and you end up with more of a muddy thump if it's not perfect but they tend to give the weight required for more dancefloor type genres.

IV I think filter plugins are allowed as long as they aren't pushed to self oscillation.

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MilksterX
KVRist
126 posts since 27 Oct, 2020

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:36 am

Is anyone getting issues with certain mod assignments on the vst3 ? Like vibrato rate modulation doesn't seem to work with mod wheel or pitch wheel but it works with envelope s

IV!
KVRist
392 posts since 31 Oct, 2019

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:29 am

MilksterX, thank you for your opinion about filters! And, as I said, VST3 doesn't work for me at all, with VST2 all normal)

Another question from the gray area. There used to be a conversation that Envelope FX is allowed in OSC. In the preview for STFU, 'z has a part in which he creates a sound like clap from a noise signal. Can we use similar methods? I guess what the answer will be, but I still want to hear your opinions)

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] Peter:H [
KVRian
1453 posts since 22 Sep, 2016

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:41 am

MilksterX wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:25 am
In order to get a kick that sounds real you need to use DC on CSO1 and leave cso2 and 3 off although you could damp it a bit. But I prefer raw DC. Envelope 1 needs to be a very short decay 200ms in order to stop repetitions. No sus, and a very small release to stop any note off additional clicks.

Work on getting a single clear click sound to begin with.

Then boost with a shelf EQ it at around 90hz and scoop out frequencies with a notch band at around 270hz and roll off the with a lowpass at 2.5khz.
Now add another EQ and roll off with a highpass curve between 20-30hz.

This should give you the frequency spectrum of a solid kick sound.

In order to get that a more punchier kick sound you're going to need an all pass filter or automate a slightly resonant curve with an EQ - from 1khz down to 60hz . Think there's a few free ones that do continuous sweeps such as allpassphase vst. Results aren't quite the same with an EQ and it's a lot of work and you end up with more of a muddy thump if it's not perfect but they tend to give the weight required for more dancefloor type genres.

IV I think filter plugins are allowed as long as they aren't pushed to self oscillation.
Interesting to read what is actually in the spirit of osc and the character of the synth... ;-)
You forgot to add on top of your chain saturation and compression and layers ... in order to make the dc coming form the synth finally real edm kick after your chain... you can add "crunch" btw when you add a compressor with very fast attack and release (few msecs only, gives kind of a crunchy am effect) and drive it really hot... kind of funny though.

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ELEX
KVRist
350 posts since 29 Nov, 2019

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:24 am

IV! wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:29 am
..There used to be a conversation that Envelope FX is allowed in OSC. In the preview for STFU, 'z has a part in which he creates a sound like clap from a noise signal. Can we use similar methods? I guess what the answer will be, but I still want to hear your opinions)
opinion:
I think that note triggered envelope FX should not be allowed at all regardless of what the envelopes are shaping. It's full 11 territory imo. Same for things like claps by automation. Or extreme compression FX ( OTT has it's name for a reason, doesn't it ? ;)). If a synth doesn't do certain things, one should find other things to do with it, shouldn't one ?

The point is to use to capabilities of the synth of the month, is it not ? Not to show how far those can be extended using external FX/automation. Aren't these challenges supposed to be about finding advantage in limitations ?
MilksterX wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:25 am
In order to get that a more punchier kick sound you're going to need an all pass filter or automate a slightly resonant curve with an EQ - from 1khz down to 60hz . Think there's a few free ones that do continuous sweeps such as allpassphase vst. Results aren't quite the same with an EQ and it's a lot of work and you end up with more of a muddy thump if it's not perfect but they tend to give the weight required for more dancefloor type genres.
Sweeping an allpass filter ( or any filter, for that matter ) is a modulation effect. I cannot see how it would be allowed to do that.

Having said that, Triple Cheese sounds excellent to me, and doesn't seem all that limited at all. Plenty to work with with resorting to externals. :tu: to U-he for making it available for naught.

IV!
KVRist
392 posts since 31 Oct, 2019

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:15 am

ELEX wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:24 am
I think that note triggered envelope FX should not be allowed at all regardless of what the envelopes are shaping.
But what about using it as an ADSR, which is also in the synthesizer or by analogy with the Side Chain, for example, to remove sounds from under the kick?) I am referring to previous discussions in which other participants said that they do similar things or are not against them. Although the option I proposed is of course rather illegal)
ELEX wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:24 am
If a synth doesn't do certain things, one should find other things to do with it, shouldn't one ?
This is more about the spirit of OSC than about the rules (the difference between these two concepts is a topic for eternal discussion :hihi: ), but in general I agree with this!
ELEX wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:24 am
:tu: to U-he for making it available for naught.
:tu: to U-he for making it so long ago, but it's still insanely relevant!

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FrogsInPants
KVRist
225 posts since 4 Nov, 2019

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:32 am

Opinions clearly differ on the use of filters. If what you're getting from the synth is a click and the end result is a kick sound, I think that clearly falls on the wrong side of the sound being unrecognizable as coming from the synth. I wouldn't do it. At the same time, I probably wouldn't severely downvote someone else for doing so, either, even if I know about it.

IV!
KVRist
392 posts since 31 Oct, 2019

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:39 am

FrogsInPants wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:32 am
Opinions clearly differ on the use of filters. If what you're getting from the synth is a click and the end result is a kick sound, I think that clearly falls on the wrong side of the sound being unrecognizable as coming from the synth. I wouldn't do it. At the same time, I probably wouldn't severely downvote someone else for doing so, either, even if I know about it.
I was referring to the usual low-resonance HP/LP, which unfortunately is not in the synthesizer, for example, to remove frequencies below 800 or above 2000, but not to color the sound. However, I still see it in gray tones, so I ask.

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ELEX
KVRist
350 posts since 29 Nov, 2019

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:59 am

IV! wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:15 am
ELEX wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:24 am
I think that note triggered envelope FX should not be allowed at all regardless of what the envelopes are shaping.
But what about using it as an ADSR, which is also in the synthesizer or by analogy with the Side Chain, for example, to remove sounds from under the kick?) I am referring to previous discussions in which other participants said that they do similar things or are not against them. Although the option I proposed is of course rather illegal)
I was of course purely stating my personal opinion on this matter. I think the character of envelopes is integral to a synths character and should be preserved. Take a VA with a slow ( say 2 ms ) attack time. Use a side chained STFU with look ahead reduce it to a mere sample and Bob's your doctor. But the synth's character is completely changed. If that type of thing does not qualify as full 11 FX use, I don't know what does. Just saying, not complaining. I'm aware it's a minority view.
IV! wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:15 am
ELEX wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:24 am
If a synth doesn't do certain things, one should find other things to do with it, shouldn't one ?
This is more about the spirit of OSC than about the rules (the difference between these two concepts is a topic for eternal discussion :hihi: ), but in general I agree with this!
Yeah, that really is 'spirit of the rules' stuff, indeed. Not to be confused with the actual rules, as so often happens. The discussion need not be eternal, though. The rules are pretty clear, I think.
IV! wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:39 am
FrogsInPants wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:32 am
Opinions clearly differ on the use of filters. If what you're getting from the synth is a click and the end result is a kick sound, I think that clearly falls on the wrong side of the sound being unrecognizable as coming from the synth. I wouldn't do it. At the same time, I probably wouldn't severely downvote someone else for doing so, either, even if I know about it.
I was referring to the usual low-resonance HP/LP, which unfortunately is not in the synthesizer, for example, to remove frequencies below 800 or above 2000, but not to color the sound. However, I still see it in gray tones, so I ask.
Nothing wrong cleaning up the mix a bit, is there ? I should learn to do that properly sometime :hihi:
Last edited by ELEX on Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

IV!
KVRist
392 posts since 31 Oct, 2019

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:16 am

ELEX wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:59 am
Nothing wrong cleaning up the mix a bit, is there ? I should learn to do that properly sometime :hihi:
Well, here, too, it can be argued that if there is no filter in the synthesizer, then using an external filter changes its character, and this will also be true. :hihi: Therefore, I collect opinions to understand how much others have used filters before, and then decide for myself how far I will go with this, as always relying more on the spirit of OSC and my conscience than on the rules)

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MilksterX
KVRist
126 posts since 27 Oct, 2020

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:27 am

I know that before volume shaper plugins and before I joined OSC listening back to past OSC tracks I think that volume automation was being done in the DAW. Or use of things like A1 trigger gate. I've no issues with it just like how reverb can increase the length of a sound volume automation can shorten it. A clap sound is probably as far as I would be willing to go though anything faster and you're getting into audio rate modulation.

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MilksterX
KVRist
126 posts since 27 Oct, 2020

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:35 am

ELEX wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:24 am
.

Sweeping an allpass filter ( or any filter, for that matter ) is a modulation effect. I cannot see how it would be allowed to do that.

Having said that, Triple Cheese sounds excellent to me, and doesn't seem all that limited at all. Plenty to work with with resorting to externals. :tu: to U-he for making it available for naught.
I'm loving the sounds from tripple cheese so far there may even be a way to do it internally I've yet to dive deeper into the various modulations. But so far the vst3 isn't working as it should for me. Various mod sources aren't working

IV!
KVRist
392 posts since 31 Oct, 2019

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:08 am

I'm sure A1 Triggergate and similar ones are common in OSC, as are arpeggiators, because in fact they don't do anything that I couldn't do with a synthesizer and a bunch of free time. But it seems to me that everything has turned slightly gray again while I was writing about it... :hihi:

zarf
KVRian
581 posts since 20 Jan, 2013

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:21 am

ELEX wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:59 am
I was of course purely stating my personal opinion on this matter. I think the character of envelopes is integral to a synths character and should be preserved. Take a VA with a slow ( say ms ) attack time. Use a side chained STFU with look ahead reduce it to a mere sample and Bob's your doctor. But the synth's character is completely changed. If that type of thing does not qualify as full 11 FX use, I don't know what does. Just saying, not complaining. I'm aware it's a minority view.
I found this an interesting way of expressing that point of view Elex, which struck me a little differently to similar ideas in the past. It has given me some new food for thought which I appreciate :tu:

I have always felt that external envelopes modulating synth parameters were totally 'in the spirit' for me - because I have tended to think about the challenge as "What can we make this synth do / produce?" rather than "What is this synth's nature and what can we create with it just as it is?". I very much like both questions :D

Using an external envelope to mod the synth's internal parameters is really just automation made easier - and automation is fine (below audio rate, I have eventually conceded haha). So - for example - using a crazy granular or spectral effect with transient shaping and extreme eq to make a completely different sound - well, in my book, that would be "full 11".
Using an envelope to modulate - say - internal filter instead of (or as well as) the synth's own filter envelope - well, that seems more creative, bringing out the flavour that is potentially there, and less 'full 11' - to me.

But having said that, and as I said at the start, I see more clearly now the perspective that even this is not the same as just seeing what the synth itself does best naturally. And I had not thought much about the envelopes of a synth as being a big part of its character, which makes a lot of sense now I think about it. That seems to be an appealingly 'wholesome' way of approaching the challenge which I may consider adopting myself.

Infinite discussions, indeed :party:

IV!
KVRist
392 posts since 31 Oct, 2019

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:38 am

In this regard, I am reasoning along a chain comparing a virtual synthesizer with a real one. For me, playing a synthesizer includes not only the keyboard, but also all the available parameter knobs, otherwise it doesn't make sense. If I can twist them, then when recording sound, I can record the results of this twisting. And if I had one hand on the keyboard, and with the other hand I would turn down the volume of the sound in time with the beat, then this would be just a creative use of the synthesizer, right?)

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