Cubase 11 Pro or Studio One 5 Pro

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
Sindikhate
KVRist
411 posts since 26 Jun, 2016

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:21 pm

Gadget Fiend wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:49 am
Sindikhate wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:35 am
EG Can you guess their best-selling DAW controller? (Spoiler - It's the Push 2 ;) ).
That's because there are no other DAW-specific controllers. Sure there are lots of other controllers that can be used with a wide range of DAWs. But only PUSH was purpose-built for Live. So your point is meaningless.
I agree with you.. But you quoted me wrong. It was not me who said that. Someone quoted me talking about push2. You also saved me the time to respond to it. :tu:

PAK
KVRian
1138 posts since 20 Feb, 2003

Post Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:46 am

Sindikhate wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:21 pm
I agree with you.. But you quoted me wrong. It was not me who said that. Someone quoted me talking about push2. You also saved me the time to respond to it. :tu:
Since you're validating something, which isn't true, I'll respond. What is the Steinberg CC 121? Isn't that a DAW controller specifically built for Cubendo? It uses the same icons, colours, and layout as the target DAW. So it's not a situation unique to Push at all. I doubt there's many using it as a generic MIDI controller oustide of Cubase (as there's better suited alternatives), plus you can also map the Push, outside of Ableton, if you really want to..

Also, that the Push is so tied to Ableton, actually furthers (rather than hinders) the suggestion that Ableton's market share is much larger than Thomann's software sales numbers suggest. It's also suggested by other Ableton-oriented products, from the likes of Akai and Novation, which are likewise ranked fairly highly..

The CC121 isn't even a unique example. There was also the Yamaha CMC controller series. They were a good (and affordable!) idea, but paper-weights outside of Cubase. The Cubase market didn't agree and they were quickly discontinued. On the other end there's also the Yamaha Nuage (aimed at Nuendo), though Thomann don't appear to think it's even worth their time carrying it, due to its limited market.

Controller wise, given Yamaha is the partner, it's actually quite shocking to see Steinberg do so poorly on some fronts. This is something where Presonus do an excellent job of, in comparison, with their Faderport controllers etc. Likewise audio interfaces, and audio hardware in general. Excellent quality to value ratio which frequently puts Yamaha / Steinberg to shame. EG The thunderbolt capable Presonus Quantum, compared to any Steinberg / Yamaha equivalents.. ouch.

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pdxindy
KVRAF
20916 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:14 am

antic604 wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:52 am
dellboy wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:59 am
...there is no way to audition in Bitwig without recording stuff.
Since v4 you actually can - they've added 3rd monitoring mode in addition to previous Auto & Off. You can now set it to On so it takes MIDI input but doesn't record it (pay attention to blue track).

They really should get that button up to track header, because it's not convenient to have to use Inspector for it.
Activate track I/O and that button is on the track.

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pdxindy
KVRAF
20916 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:18 am

PAK wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:46 am
Also, that the Push is so tied to Ableton, actually furthers (rather than hinders) the suggestion that Ableton's market share is much larger than Thomann's software sales numbers suggest. It's also suggested by other Ableton-oriented products, from the likes of Akai and Novation, which are likewise ranked fairly highly..
Ableton has by far the most support among hardware and controller companies. Even Presonus' Faderport ships with Live support. Akai hardware grooveboxes export to Live format.

I would say that is a big indication that Live is far more popular than indicated by the Thomann stats.

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antic604
KVRAF
11242 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:35 am

pdxindy wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:14 am
Activate track I/O and that button is on the track.
Right, but that takes a lot of screen space when on a laptop, so that's suboptimal.

I'd love Bitwig to employ this dynamic approach we have with Mixer panel that when everything is turned on, things will hide & show depending on the vertical size of the panel. Bitwig should also do that for track headers - when you make them taller, it could automatically show input, output and monitoring controls there. Otherwise it looks kind of "goofy" when it's that empty ;)
Music tech enthusiast
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

Sindikhate
KVRist
411 posts since 26 Jun, 2016

Post Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:57 am

PAK wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:46 am
Sindikhate wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:21 pm
I agree with you.. But you quoted me wrong. It was not me who said that. Someone quoted me talking about push2. You also saved me the time to respond to it. :tu:
Since you're validating something, which isn't true, I'll respond. What is the Steinberg CC 121? Isn't that a DAW controller specifically built for Cubendo? It uses the same icons, colours, and layout as the target DAW. So it's not a situation unique to Push at all. I doubt there's many using it as a generic MIDI controller oustide of Cubase (as there's better suited alternatives), plus you can also map the Push, outside of Ableton, if you really want to..

Also, that the Push is so tied to Ableton, actually furthers (rather than hinders) the suggestion that Ableton's market share is much larger than Thomann's software sales numbers suggest. It's also suggested by other Ableton-oriented products, from the likes of Akai and Novation, which are likewise ranked fairly highly..

The CC121 isn't even a unique example. There was also the Yamaha CMC controller series. They were a good (and affordable!) idea, but paper-weights outside of Cubase. The Cubase market didn't agree and they were quickly discontinued. On the other end there's also the Yamaha Nuage (aimed at Nuendo), though Thomann don't appear to think it's even worth their time carrying it, due to its limited market.

Controller wise, given Yamaha is the partner, it's actually quite shocking to see Steinberg do so poorly on some fronts. This is something where Presonus do an excellent job of, in comparison, with their Faderport controllers etc. Likewise audio interfaces, and audio hardware in general. Excellent quality to value ratio which frequently puts Yamaha / Steinberg to shame. EG The thunderbolt capable Presonus Quantum, compared to any Steinberg / Yamaha equivalents.. ouch.

Firstly I agree that Ableton Live has bigger userbase than the Thomann sales rank suggests and I explained why the rank is so "low". Live comes out once in 3-4-5 years and sadly is highly pirated. That sales rank should tell you though what NEW users are buying. And that does not even mean that it is their only DAW at the time of purchase.


Back to the controller front now...
You are comparing Push to the Steinberg CC121 controller? :cry:
What's next? Comparing Push to Avid S6?

Push and CC121 are completely different things. Maybe do a simple google search of "Ableton push vs" to see what are some "alternatives". On that regard.. I think Maschine(s) is selling much more. Heck some Novation ones too.

Image
Last edited by Sindikhate on Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

jancivil
KVRAF
23618 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville

Post Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:29 am

"Back to the controller front now...
You are comparing Push to the Steinberg CC121 controller? :cry:
What's next?"
more shifting of goalposts? No True Scotsman some more? it's either a controller made by the DAW manufacturer or it isn't.

Sindikhate
KVRist
411 posts since 26 Jun, 2016

Post Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:58 am

Different controllers for different needs. Push and CC121 have almost nothing in common. If you wanted to compare CC121 with Faderport for example sure. But Push? Shall we introduce usb/midi keyboards too in the discussion then?

PAK
KVRian
1138 posts since 20 Feb, 2003

Post Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:46 pm

Sindikhate wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:57 am
That sales rank should tell you though what NEW users are buying. And that does not even mean that it is their only DAW at the time of purchase.
But this still seems to ignore something obvious. Why would new users buy their software from Thomann?! Unless they're taking advantage, of hardware bundles, they go elsewhere. This is untrue for Cubase precisely because the dongle creates a physical dependence, and thus a reliance on traditional instrument retailers who hold stock and have distribution networks. (And something Steinberg want to move away from btw, given the changes in Cubase 12.. )

Once delivery is fully electronic users often go directly to the source (the software makers), or via specialist online software retailers, more likely to offer maximum discounts on hosts and other associated software.

Re: Piracy, If someone uses Live enough, that they feel they want a Push controller, I'd say there's also a significantly higher chance that user paid for Live. People want stable software, and not to second guess if issues are crack related. Not to mention malware risks these days. Users won't put up with that crap if they don't have to. Someone, with enough money to buy a Push, is more likely to be in the "don't have to" (and won't) group, IMO..
Back to the controller front now...
You are comparing Push to the Steinberg CC121 controller? :cry:
Yes. Because, if we accept Thomann provide a very incomplete software picture (Which they do. EG Logic appears nowhere in their numbers) another way, to attempt to gauge popularity, is to look at the sales figures for DAW specific controllers, where they exist. The CC121 is one such controller.

As for differences in the controllers - then you're into the nature of Ableton Live itself. The whole point of the Push controller is it doesn't just function as a bunch of drumpads. It performs various DAW functions. How do users know that and tell the difference? They perform searches! Implying it thus "doesn't count" rather misses the entire point of the sorts of reasons why people tend to use Live..

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syntonica
KVRian
1259 posts since 25 Sep, 2014 from Specific Northwest

Post Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:46 pm

What about the Akai Fire?

<runs away>

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