NI Battery 4.2 update is out!

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
SLiC
KVRAF
8376 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:39 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:32 am
SLiC wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:32 am
Maybe this is why the 'sudden' update....Subscription!

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=574452&p=8288198#p8288198
Completely unrelated!
AH, OK- just coincidence it's included in the new subscription package launched today :wink:
PC + S49 MK2, Studio One, BWS, Live (+PUSH2), FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths (Summit, Hydrasynth, Pro 3, P8), A4 + RYTM, MPC Live, Poly Tracker, Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and Pedals

felis
KVRian
857 posts since 25 Jul, 2009

Post Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:31 am

Battery is one of my favorites, and I'm glad to see it updated.

There does seem to be an undeniable conspiracy to keep people on the upgrade/update paths between software and computer OS systems though.
Win 10 minimum - not a problem for me, but I'd imagine it will be a problem for many.

User avatar
EvilDragon
KVRAF
22138 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:08 am

wvshpr wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:13 am
EvilDragon wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:57 am
Consider the sheer amount of products that have to be updated. It is far from a simple and quick job.
Kontakt, Reaktor, Maschine as core technologies for all products and a couple of FX?
Kontakt, Reaktor, FM8, Absynth, Massive, MX, Guitar Rig, and more than 30 effects (rather than "a couple"). And individual effects don't share the codebase, then there's effects done in cooperation with Softube that are different, and so on and so on.
wvshpr wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:13 am
NI has completely failed to clean up and maintain their ancient code and ignored changes in technology for many years and they are now paying the price.
No argument there. Tech debt at NI is very serious (however most recent products are indeed using more modern tech, i.e. Qt for UI). However, as per usual, great majority of people are happy to use Rosetta versions, and there are a few loud voices on forums...
wvshpr wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:13 am
One can only hope that UVI Workstation or ideally am open source alternative to Kontakt can carry the torch and rid the world of this messy code and UI.
UVI guys had years to do this and it didn't happen. So they are not at all interested to attack to "replace" Kontakt. As for open source, LinuxSampler existed for years and it didn't take off. HISE exists and it's not a realistic contender still (unless you really need that sort of freedom, but turns out not many sample library developers do)...

Funkybot's Evil Twin
KVRAF
9231 posts since 16 Aug, 2006

Post Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:17 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:08 am
UVI guys had years to do this and it didn't happen. So they are not at all interested to attack to "replace" Kontakt. As for open source, LinuxSampler existed for years and it didn't take off. HISE exists and it's not a realistic contender still (unless you really need that sort of freedom, but turns out not many sample library developers do)...
Depends on how you use Kontakt though. As an end user, I have no problem whatsoever in buying UVI Workstation libraries. In fact, if it's just sample-playback of a commercial library, I prefer UVI to Kontakt. If I'm just going to use both as glorified ROMplers, which I suspect a lot of users do, then I think UVI actually does that particular task better than Kontakt. But when it comes to being a sampler, yeah, there's no contest there. Kontakt wins.

User avatar
EvilDragon
KVRAF
22138 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:20 am

Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:17 am
If I'm just going to use both as glorified ROMplers, which I suspect a lot of users do, then I think UVI actually does that particular task better than Kontakt.
Can you elaborate a bit more? There's a pretty stark difference in the amount of content available between the platforms, so unsure if they can be that readily compared as "glorified ROMplers" IMO. To me, browsing for content in UVI/Falcon is really really bad, whereas Kontakt offers 4 ways to browse for content (including a database with tags)...

I'd say both are lousy samplers because they don't actually sample, but that's semantics. :P One thing is true, Falcon is a really fun sound design playground providing way more than sample playback.


I love Falcon, but for entirely different reasons.

Dencheg
KVRist
351 posts since 10 Oct, 2018

Post Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:59 am

What's with 3rd party format import?
I assume removing it required a bit more effort (like, from several hours to one day of a software developer) than simply keeping it where it was?
Any rationale behind that? You guys should now how people react when a new version is worse than the previous one (even in some regards)
Weapons of choice (subject to change):
Godin Redline, Kuassa, Fuse Audio, Audiority, Roland A-500pro, Dune, Dagger, ANA, GForce, Reaper

User avatar
EvilDragon
KVRAF
22138 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:03 am

Removing 3rd party format import is a consequence of Battery 4.2 being built from Kontakt 6 codebase (they're the same engine, different GUI, as it always were - Battery was actually first, from it, Kontakt grew), and K6 had the 3rd party format import already removed from the initial release. So KConvert module is not in there anymore (that's basically Chicken Systems Translator in a module, to explain naively).

REX support remained, though. That one is (arguably) the most important one anyways.

Funkybot's Evil Twin
KVRAF
9231 posts since 16 Aug, 2006

Post Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:14 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:20 am
Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:17 am
If I'm just going to use both as glorified ROMplers, which I suspect a lot of users do, then I think UVI actually does that particular task better than Kontakt.
Can you elaborate a bit more? There's a pretty stark difference in the amount of content available between the platforms, so unsure if they can be that readily compared as "glorified ROMplers" IMO. To me, browsing for content in UVI/Falcon is really really bad, whereas Kontakt offers 4 ways to browse for content (including a database with tags)...

I'd say both are lousy samplers because they don't actually sample, but that's semantics. :P One thing is true, Falcon is a really fun sound design playground providing way more than sample playback.

I love Falcon, but for entirely different reasons.
Just to clarify, I'm comparing UVI Workstation to Kontatk. But to elaborate, I hate how Kontakt manages libraries/presets. In fact, hate is probably too kind a word. :lol:

In all seriousness, my beefs include that only "NI approved" content shows up in the otherwise decent looking library tab. Drives me insane with rage. And I'm a very mellow person. Why can't all libraries go there with users having the ability to create their own for legacy or homegrown libraries? No reason other than, NI doesn't want it that way. That's exclusive to developers who pay for that additional level of access into their eco-system. So that's annoying.

The "Quick Load" section is the next best approach, but that's clunky to use, has tiny fonts, is poorly located, and just otherwise makes me sad. Why do I need two browsers?

And then the whole NI "over-engineered" preset concept just gets under my skin. There's .nki files, there's snapshots, there's other file format Kontakt uses for multi's or whatever and depending on how a file is created or saved the content is either included or referenced....it all just combines into a messy system IMO. Reaktor similarly suffers from this.

Kontakt should be much simpler and much better at organizing their content IMO. Anyone should be able to create a library of any Kontakt content they have. Forget about NKI's and Snapshots....Kontakt should have "Presets" should reference the required content and save all current settings. Presets should be able to be stored in one or more libraries of the users choosing and be completely tag-able. If a user wants to save a Multi, that should just be a different type of preset that could be handled like any other. Basically, make managing Kontakt more like a ROMpler/synth. At least by default and on a go-forward. I recognize that they'd have to maintain backwards compatibility.

I just feel like UVI works more like a ROMpler in that sense. I point it to a library, it appears in the preset list, and if I need it again, it's in the one browser. Also, their scripted GUI's just look better and feel more like standalone instruments when loaded. Whereas when using Kontakt libraries you always feel like you're using Kontakt.

Note: there's a lot of hyperbole about how angry Kontakt makes me in this post, but it's truly a little annoying and clumsy. I get how we got there, but I feel like NI should be looking to improve some of these aspects of it. UVI does much a better job at just making me feel like I'm loading up an instrument and off at the races.
Last edited by Funkybot's Evil Twin on Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

Funkybot's Evil Twin
KVRAF
9231 posts since 16 Aug, 2006

Post Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:16 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:03 am
Removing 3rd party format import is a consequence of Battery 4.2 being built from Kontakt 6 codebase (they're the same engine, different GUI, as it always were - Battery was actually first, from it, Kontakt grew), and K6 had the 3rd party format import already removed from the initial release. So KConvert module is not in there anymore (that's basically Chicken Systems Translator in a module, to explain naively).

REX support remained, though. That one is (arguably) the most important one anyways.
But I mean, users can still use their own .wav or .aif or .flac or whatever files in Battery right? That's not what they meant by removing 3rd party import right? We're not just tied into NI content only? Because if that were the case, that'd be insane.

And if that's not the case, NI should really clear up that language and specify what third-party formats have been removed and what users still can do.

User avatar
EvilDragon
KVRAF
22138 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:20 am

Of COURSE you can still use your own samples. 3rd party format import means stuff from other samplers (hardware or software).

Hewitt Huntwork
KVRian
1356 posts since 2 Jun, 2003

Post Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:23 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:20 am
Of COURSE you can still use your own samples. 3rd party format import means stuff from other samplers (hardware or software).
I was confused about this too. Thanks for the clarification!
If every KVR member wrote one review a year we'd have 678 reviews each day!

Funkybot's Evil Twin
KVRAF
9231 posts since 16 Aug, 2006

Post Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:23 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:20 am
Of COURSE you can still use your own samples. 3rd party format import means stuff from other samplers (hardware or software).
I was 95% sure that's the case, but that messaging is awful. They should say something like "Removed: Import of the following third party formats has been removed: (then list the formats)."

Otherwise, it can be interpreted as, "we're sneaky and mean AF, Battery only works with NI samples now!" Which isn't the case.

Funkybot's Evil Twin
KVRAF
9231 posts since 16 Aug, 2006

Post Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:25 am

Hewitt Huntwork wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:23 am
EvilDragon wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:20 am
Of COURSE you can still use your own samples. 3rd party format import means stuff from other samplers (hardware or software).
I was confused about this too. Thanks for the clarification!
Exactly my point. That was my first reaction too then I realized they couldn't be that insane. But it's just an example of unclear messaging and how it can be interpreted.

User avatar
EvilDragon
KVRAF
22138 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:29 am

Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:14 am
In all seriousness, my beefs include that only "NI approved" content shows up in the otherwise decent looking library tab. Drives me insane with rage. And I'm a very mellow person. Why can't all libraries go there with users having the ability to create their own for legacy or homegrown libraries? No reason other than, NI doesn't want it that way. That's exclusive to developers who pay for that additional level of access into their eco-system. So that's annoying.
Libraries tab has its own problems, once you have too many libraries. So having non-Player libraries in there would be much, much worse. Believe me ;)
Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:14 am
The "Quick Load" section is the next best approach, but that's clunky to use, has tiny fonts, is poorly located, and just otherwise makes me sad. Why do I need two browsers?
Fair points there (QL used to be in the left side browser area in K3, but it looked worse actually, IMO). You don't necessarily need two browsers (Kontakt gives you 4!), you decide which one you want to use and how.
Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:14 am
There's .nki files, there's snapshots, there's other file format Kontakt uses for multi's or whatever and depending on how a file is created or saved the content is either included or referenced....it all just combines into a messy system IMO. Reaktor similarly suffers from this.
Reaktor has a much worse problem I would say. I think Kontakt has it much easier. Snapshots are extremely important because you can store instrument setting differences without reloading samples, speeding up patch loading within a single library. It grew as a requirement for NKS but ended up being really handy in a number of situations. Multis... is an entirely separate level so it makes sense to have it as a separate file format. Again you don't have to use it... But there's merits to why it's there.
Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:14 am
Kontakt should be much simpler and much better at organizing their content IMO.
Agreed on the whole. And Kontakt team is well aware of this too.
Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:14 am
Anyone should be able to create a library of any Kontakt content they have. Forget about NKI's and Snapshots....Kontakt should have "Presets" should reference the required content and save all current settings. Presets should be able to be stored in one or more libraries of the users choosing and be completely tag-able. If a user wants to save a Multi, that should just be a different type of preset that could be handled like any other. Basically, make managing Kontakt more like a ROMpler/synth. At least by default and on a go-forward. I recognize that they'd have to maintain backwards compatibility.
Disagreed on many accounts there (and of course, bias should be evident). Why wouldn't developers who paid for licensing have more visibility? This whole ecosystem exists because of those developers. It all rose from Kompakt times. Would you really want to have a separate plugin in your DAW for each different sample library? I think not! As such, Libraries tab is a pretty elegant solution overall.
Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:14 am
Also, their scripted GUI's just look better and feel more like standalone instruments when loaded. Whereas when using Kontakt libraries you always feel like you're using Kontakt.
Then use Komplete Kontrol and it won't look like you're using Kontakt. You just get the nice GUI and that's it - exactly like it is in UVIW. :P

Funkybot's Evil Twin
KVRAF
9231 posts since 16 Aug, 2006

Post Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:20 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:29 am
Why wouldn't developers who paid for licensing have more visibility? This whole ecosystem exists because of those developers. It all rose from Kompakt times.
You know who else gave NI money for Kontakt? Me. It's not cheap either. So NI shouldn't arbitrarily handicap what I can do with the software to promote their own developers. I resent that in any company. Having Libraries pre-created for developers makes sense when they've paid into the eco-system, even promoting them at the top, but don't forget about the customers and do stuff that limits what they can do with your software. They're the people NI should be catering to. Not themselves.

Return to “Instruments”