Zero-Latency Forever?

[aetmont]

I'm an Average Bedroom-Producer Joe who is frustrated, scared, and discouraged by latency.

Last year I upgraded my 2014 16GB RAM MacBook Pro to a 32GB Hackintosh which performs much better, only to push myself into this computer's ceiling as well, resulting in latency, sample rate miscalculations, stuttering, popping, etc.

Asking entirely from curiosity (due to lack of funds) - is there a computer in this world which could theoretically do everything zero-latency and still allow for live MIDI / recording / etc, even with a bazillion tracks automated to hell and back with a bazillion plugins on each?

There is such a joy to hearing what one has done the very nanosecond one has done it.

Would it take servers? $300K a month electricity bills? One's firstborn drowning in a sea of ethernet cables? Does it exist? Can it be attained? Or does something about digital audio processing go to sh*t when there's enough going on?

Sorry if this has been asked before, I'm just trying to dig into the curiosity and eagerness which is the flip side of my frustration, and I am far from a computer nerd.

Thank you all.

[Synthack]

.........

[Guenon]

There is such a joy to hearing what one has done the very nanosecond one has done it.

Sound also travels in the air about 0.000343 millimeters during that one nanosecond. Sooo you would need to be pretty close to your speakers.



More seriously, in other words if you are listening using studio monitors one meter away, you will hear the sound almost three milliseconds after it has already happened in those speakers

[BertKoor]

You're on mac? Which daw do you use?
I'm asking because one of the most popular mac-only daws has the worst efficiency.
Just switching to a known efficient daw can get you a 50% gain in computing power.

Also picking your plugins wisely will give you more power. Know when the efficient built-in eq or compressor is good enough and when you need to pull out the 256x oversampling zero-phase-shift beast. Horses for courses.

[aetmont]

You're on mac? Which daw do you use?
I'm asking because one of the most popular mac-only daws has the worst efficiency.
Just switching to a known efficient daw can get you a 50% gain in computing power.

Also picking your plugins wisely will give you more power. Know when the efficient built-in eq or compressor is good enough and when you need to pull out the 256x oversampling zero-phase-shift beast. Horses for courses.

I'm on a Hackintosh running Logic 10.5. I am seriously thinking about buying Reaper, but I'd like to hear more about which DAWs you endorse as efficient.

I do categorically need to get better about picking plugins, bouncing audio down, freezing, and generally being more respectful of my DAWs power. I have been needy and fickle, one might say.

I imagine my copy of Logic complains about its assh*le boss at the bar after work.

Thanks!

[ON BEATS]

Hey guys, I'm new to the forum so hi!

I use a MacBook M1 13" Pro bought in August.

Regarding the latency I use a Bluetooth MIDI Keyboard for input and never have latency issues using it. I personally like to work with minimal cables and start most beats using just the wireless keyboard and internal laptop speakers.

If I connect the Bluetooth Headphones it will cause some latency so I use the standard audio output for monitoring (or audio interface when recording audio).

I connected a Magic Trackpad to the Mac and it caused a bit of drag. It might be an idea to see what else is connected to your laptop when you open the software (DAW) to create beats. I keep airdrop and everything else active but it might cause a problem at your end. Try deactivating what you aren't using, for example WiFi and Bluetooth if you are connecting controllers over USB.

Hopefully that helps. I can't stand latency issues and when I press a key I need to hear it, as close to immediately as possible. Fingers crossed you've got it sorted buddy.

[Mister Natural]

my modest experience is that the more recent/better interface has a bigger impact on latency performance than the machine

[jupiter8]

Zero latency simply isn't possible nor is it needed. The question is how low.

With that said i believe we're close to your dream. It should soon be possible if it isn't already. I have this idea how to make it possible even today. It simply hasn't been implemented yet in any DAW i know of. Logic is halfway there i believe.

[rafa1981]

There are some DSP algorithms that require latency (FFT/, FIR, lookahead) no matter the CPU power, so there is a lower bound not being 0. This unless we can beat causality.

[BertKoor]

I'm on a Hackintosh running Logic 10.5.

For what it's worth, Logic has the reputation of being rather efficient and low-latency.
But other factors matter as well. Like the audio interface.

And avoid stupid things, like loading 30 instances of the same reverb with the same patch. One in a send will do fine as well. Think efficient.

[Glyster]

Like others said, zero latency isn't possible. Electric transmission has a speed limit. Everything running on a computer has a latency. For example the CPU is running at 3 GHz.

[BertKoor]

Like others said, zero latency isn't possible. Electric transmission has a speed limit. Everything running on a computer has a latency. For example the CPU is running at 3 GHz.

No kidding. With a very high sampling frequency of 192 kHz that's 15.600 clock cycles per sample. So that is not the bottleneck.
What is then?
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=34218

[Pictus]

my modest experience is that the more recent/better interface has a bigger impact on latency performance than the machine

Everything counts, RME is the king of performance.
https://gearspace.com/board/showpost.ph ... count=4631

[aetmont]

Everything counts, RME is the king of performance.

My Arturia 8Pre isn't even on there

[WasteLand]

Everything counts, RME is the king of performance.

My Arturia 8Pre isn't even on there

not all are tested, so some can be quite efficient maybe.

the list that @Pictus shows, comes from a big thread on Gearspace.

i made an own thread, on a local forum, about efficiencie; so not alone about latency, low latency is great, but also drivers/firmware/connection etc. of the soundcard (not to mention mainboard, usb connections, etc... but we will only focus on soundinterface).

indeed i myself, without running the LLP test, noticed an improvement, quite big, and it is also dependent on other factors of course, between a Motu Ultralite Mk3 and RME Hammerfall DSP Multiface (19 years old, bridged, it has a dedicated PCI card, so PCIe to PCI). and tested also a behringer UMC204HD (that has a quite low latency!), that performed as well as the Motu, with half the latency in ms, at the same settings. the RME is the clear winner. so the others are gone.

even the zero latency that RME states, they it themself isn't really zero latency, can't be, AD/DA converters...

and as @Guennon mentioned, also the distance from your speakers.

latency can be a problem for some things, and people, but i can live with a output latency of 12 ms, that plays well, ITB. i use a 512 sample buffer, that gives that output latency @48Khz.