Good Bye Reaktor, good bye NI synths

[pandashake]

NI abbandoned B4, PRO-53.
They didn't updated Absynth and FM8.

Why would they need to? B4, Pro53 and FM8 are all emulations of classic instruments from decades ago, I don't see where there is room for updating them once you've got 'em right. More to the point, NI aren't charging you money to keep them around so why would you care? If they worked for you last week or last month, last year or last Century, why wouldn't they keep working for you into the future?

I would be over the moon if they had released 64 bit versions of B4II, Pro-53, Vokator, and Spektral Delay. That's the big issue and why they were "abadoned."

[machinesworking]

NI abbandoned B4, PRO-53.
They didn't updated Absynth and FM8.

Why would they need to? B4, Pro53 and FM8 are all emulations of classic instruments from decades ago, I don't see where there is room for updating them once you've got 'em right. More to the point, NI aren't charging you money to keep them around so why would you care? If they worked for you last week or last month, last year or last Century, why wouldn't they keep working for you into the future?

I would be over the moon if they had released 64 bit versions of B4II, Pro-53, Vokator, and Spektral Delay. That's the big issue and why they were "abadoned."

I think it's a mental blind spot for Bones, he's personally moved on from his favorite DAW Orion because it doesn't work with modern plug ins etc. he's aware that 64 bit DAWs for the most part do not bridge these old plug ins, but every time someone mentions deprecated plug ins not working in modern DAWs, OS's or hardware, he acts like it's not any big deal. You can of course freeze a system in Windows 7 or Snow Leopard etc. but pretty much no one does that. I'm actually doing that with the Mac Pro here, Mojave until it dies, so I suppose it's not unheard of. Even then, I don't remember Camel Audio releasing permanent codes for Alchemy etc. at least I didn't receive them, so that plug in will die when the Mac Pro dies.

[chk071]

Pro-53 - released in 2002. B4 - released in 2000. Vokator - released in 2003. Spektra Delay - released in 2001 (I think).

Yes, software becomes deprecated. It's the way things go. There's an official statement about the discontinuation about Vokator and Spektral Delay, by the way (from 2007): https://www.native-instruments.com/foru ... ued.54191/ Probably, something similar was announced for Pro-53 and B4.

I think NI even handed out free Super 8 licenses for people who complained that they couldn't activate their Pro-53 anymore. I wonder how much more you can ask for as a customer.

[Biome_Digital]

Why is everyone keep saying Massive X is unfinished? Maybe Massive X was MEANT to be like that. No more no less

Could be

However, it was generally stated that because Massive X was delayed by some months, it had to get released and that subsequent updates would address some of the weak spots. It might not have been NI saying that but rather betatesters etc. I don't remember at this point.

In 2 1/2 years since the MX release nothing much has happened. Compare that to Arturia Pigments which was initially released 3 years ago. Version 2 came, then V3 and now Arturia just released Pigments 3.5 which is a significant free update.

Yes, Pigments is constantly getting new and very good features that we actually want. Also giving away loads of presets with the updates. Check out the new presets in 3.5 by New Loops. I made them for this update.

[bmanic]

Form, Scanner XT, Battery 4 etc.. these ALL suffer from some abysmal programming where these programs don't search for the basic content once modified slightly. This leads the user to have to do a bunch of workarounds and saving samples all over the place, even if it's entirely based on the factory library (!!!).

Or you can tell it to go and find the samples itself - Search Library, Search Location or whatever - then save the project and never have to worry again. The only times I've ever had those problems was when building a new PC. The first time you open a project on the new machine, you let it search for the samples or whatever, then save the project and it never comes up again. And, to be fair, I've only ever had that issue with Battery and Reaktor, Kontakt seems to be a bit smarter.

Beeep! Wrong!

It does not work like that. Here test this:

1)

Open Reaktor, then open Form or Scanner XT. Now drag and drop a sample from the factory library of the corresponding synth you just opened within Reaktor. Tweak the synth to your hearts content.. save your song. Close the DAW and reopen the project. Boom.. nada. Sample missing and you have to manually point it back to the factory (!!) sample folder.

Of course this also means it wont have a chance in hell locating your custom samples on any given hard drive or other location, ever.


2) Have a friend of yours edit a factory Battery 4 kit.. then save it and then send you the song. Open it up and you'll find a nice empty battery kit with all the samples missing even when all content is FACTORY.

This happens no matter how many times you've had Battery rescan your HD for the factory content. It's just not smart enough to understand that people collaborating might have the factory content on a different drive or within a different folder structure.

There are workarounds for this to get it working but these are just that, workarounds. Some solid B grade software engineering right there (and useless beta team considering this has been going on for a decade now).

That's Native-Instruments for you.

[machinesworking]

Pro-53 - released in 2002. B4 - released in 2000. Vokator - released in 2003. Spektra Delay - released in 2001 (I think).

Yes, software becomes deprecated. It's the way things go. There's an official statement about the discontinuation about Vokator and Spektral Delay, by the way (from 2007): https://www.native-instruments.com/foru ... ued.54191/ Probably, something similar was announced for Pro-53 and B4.

I think NI even handed out free Super 8 licenses for people who complained that they couldn't activate their Pro-53 anymore. I wonder how much more you can ask for as a customer.

That's a partial list of deprecated software there. Kore, Akoustic and Electic Piano, Generator, and Kompact come to mind. It's not arguably a huge list of abandoned software.

I accept that NI does this, but it's not like there aren't examples of companies that do not do this. U-He has a great track record, I think Zebra 1 is just recently incompatible for instance. Arturia I can only think of two software titles they deprecated, and only the DAW/Sequencer Storm is truly gone, they updated Spark 2 to work in Rosetta mode on M1 macs just a week ago.

It's purely a business decision, not a "necessary part of being a software company to stay solvent", and they claim they aren't deprecating software anymore, well that's what a developer said when they dropped Kore, but we will see if Absynth or FM8 make it to VST3, resizable GUIs and M1.

[machinesworking]

1)

Open Reaktor, then open Form or Scanner XT. Now drag and drop a sample from the factory library of the corresponding synth you just opened within Reaktor. Tweak the synth to your hearts content.. save your song. Close the DAW and reopen the project. Boom.. nada. Sample missing and you have to manually point it back to the factory (!!) sample folder.

Of course this also means it wont have a chance in hell locating your custom samples on any given hard drive or other location, ever.


2) Have a friend of yours edit a factory Battery 4 kit.. then save it and then send you the song. Open it up and you'll find a nice empty battery kit with all the samples missing even when all content is FACTORY.

This happens no matter how many times you've had Battery rescan your HD for the factory content. It's just not smart enough to understand that people collaborating might have the factory content on a different drive or within a different folder structure.

There are workarounds for this to get it working but these are just that, workarounds. Some solid B grade software engineering right there (and useless beta team considering this has been going on for a decade now).

That's Native-Instruments for you.

To be fair other software is also this dumb. I love Live, but it loses samples and audio all the time,most DAWs do unless you import all audio etc. and oddly enough the best piece of software for finding lost samples is Kontakt. Kontakt can search in a half dozen ways for missing files, including using the OS search engine, which works fantastically on OSX with Spotlight anyway. So yeah NI literally have the blue print for solid searching of lost files in their own catalog!

^^^this is the kind of thing NI IMO should be roasted for, not some new feature that everyone thinks they need, but just smooth UX across the line. < doesn't generate new revenue though.

[chk071]

Pro-53 - released in 2002. B4 - released in 2000. Vokator - released in 2003. Spektra Delay - released in 2001 (I think).

Yes, software becomes deprecated. It's the way things go. There's an official statement about the discontinuation about Vokator and Spektral Delay, by the way (from 2007): https://www.native-instruments.com/foru ... ued.54191/ Probably, something similar was announced for Pro-53 and B4.

I think NI even handed out free Super 8 licenses for people who complained that they couldn't activate their Pro-53 anymore. I wonder how much more you can ask for as a customer.

That's a partial list of deprecated software there. Kore, Akoustic and Electic Piano, Generator, and Kompact come to mind. It's not arguably a huge list of abandoned software.

I accept that NI does this, but it's not like there aren't examples of companies that do not do this. U-He has a great track record, I think Zebra 1 is just recently incompatible for instance. Arturia I can only think of two software titles they deprecated, and only the DAW/Sequencer Storm is truly gone, they updated Spark 2 to work in Rosetta mode on M1 macs just a week ago.

It's purely a business decision, not a "necessary part of being a software company to stay solvent", and they claim they aren't deprecating software anymore, well that's what a developer said when they dropped Kore, but we will see if Absynth or FM8 make it to VST3, resizable GUIs and M1.

Do you think Pro-53 or B4 would be competitive these days?

What about Steinberg's Model E? Would you say that it's worth re-activating it, and making it Mac M1 compatible, and all that?

[grrrz]

I used pro-53 for years but it sounds like shit compared to the prophet V or the repro. only think I use from NI is the kontakt player for a few third party sound libraries. Also it's not the same but the synclavier emulation from arturia does some of what absynth did (additive synth) and more (morphing between user-edited waveform; FM with the same principle. It's a great synth.

[machinesworking]

Do you think Pro-53 or B4 would be competitive these days?

Yes.. There was nothing wrong with B4, and Pro-53 used not a stitch of CPU. I'm completely baffled by this seeming uncanny valley people have with older software? as if there isn't a whole market for Chiptune plug ins? or low fi old synths? and as if every sound needs to crunch your CPU with the latest hardware emulation code?

Couple that with another ghost in the room, old songs with old plug ins that just open up like it's not any big deal, VS that plug in completely gone. I mean really, there aren't any rational reasons for being OK with deprecated plug ins besides cost VS time a company might spend doing it, so you would rather the company spend their resources on new product etc. I appreciate companies like U-He and Arturia bothering to keep backwards compatibility song wise working. I get why NI dropped old product in the past, but flatly if they decide to drop Absynth instead of updating it for VST3 and M1 at the very least, then they lied all those years ago.

[machinesworking]

I used pro-53 for years but it sounds like shit compared to the prophet V or the repro.

Pro-53 had a few filter settings that were just vicious in a great way, not anything like a Prophet 5, but I've rarely cared about the marketing of emulations, just what I can get out of the plug in.

[chk071]

Chiptune synths like the ones emulating the C64 chip are made to sound like that. Analog emulations are made to sound like the original. If contemporary emulatiosn run circles around them in terms of authenticity, I can't really see much of a market for such synths, thus it's obvious that they won't be updated for the next two decades.

Look, I get your point. I also own a plugin I would love to see go 64-bit, but, I do get the reasons why it won't happen. And, I definitely get the reasons why NI discontinued Pro-53 and B4, regardless of the handful of people still using those.

[machinesworking]

Chiptune synths like the ones emulating the C64 chip are made to sound like that. Analog emulations are made to sound like the original. If contemporary emulatiosn run circles around them in terms of authenticity, I can't really see much of a market for such synths, thus it's obvious that they won't be updated for the next two decades.

Look, I get your point. I also own a plugin I would love to see go 64-bit, but, I do get the reasons why it won't happen. And, I definitely get the reasons why NI discontinued Pro-53 and B4, regardless of the handful of people still using those.

The thing is I get the reasons why, I just don't agree with it, and Arturia are an example of a company that keeps old software up to date, as well as U-He. There are more examples of both behaviors, but I can't really justify in the bigger picture deprecating old software, because there are examples of companies that do not.
People complain about the CS80, but I end up using it, and it's low CPU hit is appreciated. One thing that happens with low priced software that replaces hardware is people don't appreciate it in the same way. People buy copies of workstations from Korg etc. for the "bad" sound of the emulations, and that's exactly what people are doing with chiptunes, they're wanting bad low end sound, like I said there's an uncanny valley where if it's not as terrible as a C64 chip or an M1 workstation from the 90's, it's not good. At some point years from now soft synths will roll out to emulate the aliased filters of early soft synths, and people will buy them.

[THE INTRANCER]

You will never truly appreciate Reaktor for what it is until you actually spend time building things with it. It's like Lego, only very advanced Lego. You can buy pre-built Lego models, but it's just not the same as building your own and learning along the way.

You can build great things in Reaktor, but it's ultimately down to time, skill and dedication to do it. It's akin to trying to build a castle out of match sticks in time and patience.

[plexuss]

I have Reaktor. I don't build things with it. I have lots of ensembles, free and commercial. It's got a small UI on my screen. I don't care. It sound great and there are some amazing synths and things available for it. I can work around all the listed limitations because I only use it as a synth or effect and for me it's great for that. so there.