Cool new plug in format on the way -- CLAP

[jamcat]

Again, also, in case this hasn't sunk in yet or maybe people haven't understood the concept: CLAP is designed to speed up VST3 development for developers and minimise common issues. So, what's not to like about that?

So CLAP is a replacement for JUCE, not VST3?

Is “format” being misused in the thread title?

[jamcat]

Just make sure it doesn't get called 'The Clap'. 🥵
Oh, too late....

Speaking of updating for 64-bit/VST3/M1, will we ever see BarChimes working on Mac again?

[Music Engineer]

So CLAP is a replacement for JUCE, not VST3?

no. juce is a framework that allows plugin programmers to target different plugin formats with the same code. clap is itself such a plugin format. i would consider it mostly as a replacement for vst2 which steinberg has withdrawn. but clap is better anyway - from both a technical and licensing point of view

[Urs]

So CLAP is a replacement for JUCE, not VST3?

no. juce is a framework that allows plugin programmers to target different plugin formats with the same code. clap is itself such a plugin format. i would consider it mostly as a replacement for vst2 which steinberg has withdrawn. but clap is better anyway - from both a technical and licensing point of view

Yes. The license is key here. It's truly open and accessible to anyone.

Technologies that are otherwise obscured by ghastly designed APIs become accessible (and hopefully reliable!) with CLAP, which in turn will lead to better compatibility with those obscure APIs, by wrapping or adapting to them.

Let's face it: If it's not made with JUCE or iPlug, it's probably made with VST2 and then somehow wrapped to AU/VST3. But as VST2 doesn't have the right concepts and as VST3 is deliberately incompatible to VST2 in many ways, a lot of things haven't happened. NoteExpressions or time stamped automation for starters. As CLAP lends itself to replace VST2 as base of many plug-ins, those plug-ins are more easily equipped to support those concepts.

[jamcat]

So CLAP includes a VST3 wrapper?

[Urs]

So CLAP includes a VST3 wrapper?

Some people are working on an open source version of it.

[Markus Krause]

So CLAP is a replacement for JUCE, not VST3?

no. juce is a framework that allows plugin programmers to target different plugin formats with the same code. clap is itself such a plugin format. i would consider it mostly as a replacement for vst2 which steinberg has withdrawn. but clap is better anyway - from both a technical and licensing point of view

Yes. The license is key here. It's truly open and accessible to anyone.

Technologies that are otherwise obscured by ghastly designed APIs become accessible (and hopefully reliable!) with CLAP, which in turn will lead to better compatibility with those obscure APIs, by wrapping or adapting to them.

Let's face it: If it's not made with JUCE or iPlug, it's probably made with VST2 and then somehow wrapped to AU/VST3. But as VST2 doesn't have the right concepts and as VST3 is deliberately incompatible to VST2 in many ways, a lot of things haven't happened. NoteExpressions or time stamped automation for starters. As CLAP lends itself to replace VST2 as base of many plug-ins, those plug-ins are more easily equipped to support those concepts.

I can confirm this, as I natively worked with VST2, VST3 and JUCE.

On the development of Warlock I wasted one year of development with trying to tame the VST3 SDK (v3.6 as well as v3.7). Warlock is one of the few native VST3 synthesizers that are around here. Warlock itself works, but has limitations and I had to do many tricky hacks to make even the most simple things work. Apart from this Steinberg's AU wrapper still fails compiling on all my machines. That's why there is still no AU version available.
As soon as you support more advanced VST3 features you'll notice that you quickly run into compatibility problems with various DAWS (patch management, hierarchical parameters, etc) or things quickly get extremely complicated (animated custom-displays, singlecomponent, GUI-only parameters). As a result you can only support a very basic set of VST3 features that is even less than what VST2 supports.

Porting VST2.4 SDK projects to the VST3 SDK is a complete nightmare. The SDKs are completely incompatible. There is no downward compatibility at all.

I wasted one year of work just to find out that the VST3 SDK simply doesn't work properly for complex plugins and then move to JUCE. The VST3 SDK is a loveless mess. It's over-engineered, partially broken, heavily obfuscated and fails compiling in many places. It partially works if you create simple effect plugins like 'AGain', but it doesn't work properly for synthesizers.

[LeVzi]

OK so for us less savvy users who know nothing about plugin programming.

Is CLAP going to potentially replace VST3 / 2.4 ? Or work with it, combine with it , what ?

Because if it becomes more popular, I don't see Steinberg being too happy about it. Or Apple for that matter with their native system (AU is it ? ) or the AAX format.

So I dunno how it's going to work, but I just hope its more a working WITH idea than replacement because otherwise I see DAW wars beginning.

[EvilDragon]

It has the facility to replace both, since it's extensible, simple and efficient. So developers can write a CLAP plugin that would then basically be wrapped into other formats. New plugin developers would this way still be able to provide a "VST2" plugin (which is a CLAP wrapped into a CLAP-to-VST2 wrapper) even if they couldn't get the VST2SDK license from Steinberg since 2018.

[Music Engineer]

I don't see Steinberg being too happy about it. Or Apple for that matter with their native system (AU is it ? ) or the AAX format.

the audio software industry desparately needs a common, interoperable industry standard for plugins that is easy to use and readily accessible. it certainly doesn't need 3 or more proprietary formats that are heavyweight and difficult to use and make you jump through hoops with regard to licensing. surely enough, the proprietors of those formats may have a different take on this - although i actually think that eventually they may see the advantages of such a situation as well. the interoperability of midi was also eventually beneficial to the industry as a whole.

[LeVzi]

It has the facility to replace both, since it's extensible, simple and efficient. So developers can write a CLAP plugin that would then basically be wrapped into other formats. New plugin developers would this way still be able to provide a "VST2" plugin (which is a CLAP wrapped into a CLAP-to-VST2 wrapper) even if they couldn't get the VST2SDK license from Steinberg since 2018.

OK but surely that's going to p!ss off Steinberg ? Losing out on their license sales.

I like the idea, and if it works just as well as the current formats, and can actually improve the plugins, then awesome.

[EvilDragon]

Well, they can do nothing about it. They could be pissed off the same way about AU or AAX.

[Music Engineer]

OK but surely that's going to p!ss off Steinberg ? Losing out on their license sales.

actually, steinberg doesn't sell licenses for vst. the problem with the licensing is not cost but rather risk and dependency. with vst2, there was a clause that disallowed to redistribute the vst-sdk source code which was super inconvenient for open source projects. vst3 at least allows redistribution under gpl which is an improvement but still rather limiting. and if you want to do closed source products, you are required to sign some intimidating legalese which is not very encouraging

[LeVzi]

How does the VST license.work ?

[AnX]

OK so for us less savvy users who know nothing about plugin programming.

Is CLAP going to potentially replace VST3 / 2.4 ? Or work with it, combine with it , what ?

From what I understand, It might replace them in hosts that support clap, but in others it will be in a wrapper (which will poss add problems)

I guess in 10 years time when it's in full swing, we'll find out. By that time I'll be long gone from the computer music scene, and there will prob be another 5 formats anyway