Pashkuli: PMN (Plain Music Notation)

[Pashkuli]

what makes you think instruments, such as the hydraulis, built at a time when the main system in use was based on a set of tetrachords and separating tones bounded by A at each end would favour C major as the primary scale?

Exactly! It did not. C major was favourite in Medieval times. The whole psalm related to the phonetic naming of the 7 (out of 12) notes as syllables happened to be in C major ("natural).
Yet, the letter assignment of the notes did not start with Ut = A, Re = B, Mi = C.
A is La most likely because of (I am speculating because I was not there) a misconception about the old naming of intervals done by Boethius, and A was assigned to the key on the most left (of the clavichords at that time).

In short: it is just a mess!

[fmr]

Another suspect here is the church psalm "Sancte Iohannes" ("Ut queant laxis"), allegedly composed by Guido d'Arezzo: the father of the music score notation. He also marked the notes C and F.
Anther special case.

Guido didn't "compose" that hymn. The hymn predates him by more than 100 years. It just used it to give names to the notes. BTW - the note names are still what is used in all latin countries, not the A, B, C, D E, F, G nomenclature, which is an archaism, abandoned first in Italy and then pretty much everywhere else except England and Germany.

Guido chose that hymn because, by coincidence, each verse started with a note one degree higher than the preceding verse, starting with C (Ut), and up to A (La). The remaining note was given the name Si after the initials of "Sancte Iohannes". Those names became the note names adopted by all countries, as I said, except that Ut became Do (but in France it is still named Ut).

And since tonality was first established in Italy... connect the dots. Many things that were established and remain in music came from Italy, which pretty much dominated the musical world for like 300 years, since the XV century up to the XVIII century.

I didn't get what you mean by "He also marked the notes C and F". If you mean the hexachords, it marked the notes C, F and G.

[Pashkuli]

And since tonality was first established in Italy... connect the dots.

I didn't get what you mean by "He also marked the notes C and F". What you mean, If you mean the hexachords, it marked the notes C, F and G.

Yes, it is most likely true that the religious psalm was much older.
Well, I do not know about the names though. They are pretty much gone. You would rarely see in online forums anyone writing their notes as Do, Re, Mi... they use C, D, E (easier, although illogical).

Those two above have not been adopted.
They were imposed and indoctrinated. Just a historical fact.
(thankfully not everywhere... at least not for me).

I meant the so called neume notation. I think they marked the notes that would become C and F with some colours.
One line was marked as representing a particular pitch, usually C or F. But not always in every notation script.

[fmr]

C major was favourite in Medieval times.

NOT. In medieval times, the predominant was the mode of D, and the next was the mode of G, and perhaps the mode of E (which was reserved to the more intimate and reflexive singings, like the Pange Lingua hymn).

In the renaissance, the predominant was the mode of G, but at the time things became a little confused, because composers were transitioning from modes to tonality, in a slow movement. There wasn't even anything like C Major (tonality only appeared between the XVI and the XVII century).

[fmr]

Well, I do not know about the names though. They are pretty much gone. You would rarely see in online forums anyone writing their notes as Do, Re, Mi... they use C, D, E (easier, although illogical).

What? The names are gone? Are you nuts? I told you the names are still used pretty much EVERYWHERE except in England and Germany. The fact you don't see them in forums is because the pop/rock music scene became dominated by anglo-saxonics, and the rest of the world adapted, and use the anglo-saxonic nomenclature (but we always translate that into our own names in our minds, I think).

[Pashkuli]

C major was favourite in Medieval times.

NOT. In medieval times, the predominant was the mode of D, and the next was the mode of G...

Ok, but I did not mean the exact tonal root of C.
I meant the mode: the so called: ionian mode, wrongly called natural major
Let's put aside the fact that in even ancient times (before medieval) the modes actually were in form of descending cadences divided into tetrachords.
This can still be observed in the so called folk music of mediterranean origin
flamenco, greek, balkan, north african etc.

[gaggle of hermits]

Exactly! It did not. C major was favourite in Medieval times. The whole psalm related to the phonetic naming of the 7 (out of 12) notes as syllables happened to be in C major ("natural).
Yet, the letter assignment of the notes did not start with Ut = A, Re = B, Mi = C.
A is La most likely because of (I am speculating because I was not there) a misconception about the old naming of intervals done by Boethius, and A was assigned to the key on the most left (of the clavichords at that time).

In short: it is just a mess!

as Wolfgang Pauli would have said: "this is not even wrong".

seriously, it's like watching a pigeon play chess. the one thing the medieval scholars got right when translating the greek system into their practice was the names and relative positions of the notes. if you'd actually studied any of this instead of pretending to so you can sound important on the interwebz, you'd know that that the arrangement of diatonic tones from A->A (as they were named from the dark ages) is entirely consistent with what we now call a C major scale.

[Pashkuli]

Well, I do not know about the names though. They are pretty much gone. You would rarely see in online forums anyone writing their notes as Do, Re, Mi... they use C, D, E (easier, although illogical).

What? ...because the pop/rock music scene became dominated by anglo-saxonics, and the rest of the world adapted, and use the anglo-saxonic nomenclature (but we always translate that into our own names in our minds, I think).

You react the same as my reaction to the indoctrination of medieval practices in Music.
Yes. I do agree with on that observation and frustrating fact.

But also, I oppose the names Do, Re, Mi... as much as I oppose their corresponding C, D, E...
I think it should be obvious by now.

[gaggle of hermits]

I meant the mode: the so called: ionian mode, wrongly called natural major

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

if anything the one that got the wrong name was "ionian". the Ancient Greek mode that corresponds to our conception of ionian was actually called lydian (diatonic), but that wound up getting attached to a different medieval mode before anyone got around to redefining that particular mode.

[Pashkuli]

...you'd know that that the arrangement of diatonic tones from A->A (as they were named from the dark ages) is entirely consistent with what we now call a C major scale.

Ok, where is that and how did it change to A minor? Or do you mean because C "natural" major and A "natural" minor share the same notes (parallel)?
A to A is C major, is a bit confusing to me. Also Greek alphabet is not A, B, C, D... it is A, B, Г, Δ (D), E, Z...
Could you elaborate, please.

[gaggle of hermits]

But also, I oppose the names Do, Re, Mi...

you do realise they're just mnemonics for solfeggio right?

what am I saying? of course you don't.

[gaggle of hermits]

...you'd know that that the arrangement of diatonic tones from A->A (as they were named from the dark ages) is entirely consistent with what we now call a C major scale.

Ok, where is that and how did it change to A minor? Or do you mean because C "natural" major and A "natural" minor share the same notes (parallel)?
A to A is C major, is a bit confusing to me. Also Greek alphabet is not A, B, C, D... it is A, B, Г, Δ (D), E, Z...
Could you elaborate, please.

is reading a challenge? "named from the dark ages". the greeks never used letters for note names, they were full words and phrases like "mese" or "nete hyperbolaeon"

in answer to your first question: look at the semitone and tone arrangements in the greek tetrachords. unless you understand where the semitones fall in the greater perfect system, you are going to remain as obviously confused as you are now.

[Pashkuli]

you do realise they're just mnemonics for solfeggio right?
what am I saying? of course you don't.

Irrelevant and also regardless of application, they are a wrongly imposed "tradition" from a special case of a 'libretto'.
They are utterly useless to me. In the same fashion as C, D, E...

[fmr]

C major was favourite in Medieval times.

NOT. In medieval times, the predominant was the mode of D, and the next was the mode of G...

Ok, but I did not mean the exact tonal root of C.
I meant the mode: the so called: ionian mode, wrongly called natural major
Let's put aside the fact that in even ancient times (before medieval) the modes actually were in form of descending cadences divided into tetrachords.

There wasn't any Ionian mode in the middle ages. Something resembling C Major only started to appear in the transition period, in the late Renaissance, but even then the mode of G (Mixolydian) was the predominant mode.

Even in the folk tradition, the mode of D was the main one. In the Mediterranean and Central Europe some other modes appeared, like the so-called Gypsy mode, or hungarian mode, and the Hispano-arabic mode (which anglo-saxonics transformed into a bizarre "phrygian dominant"). Nothing close to C Major anywhere, AFAIK.

[fmr]

But also, I oppose the names Do, Re, Mi...

you do realise they're just mnemonics for solfeggio right?

Well... yes in anglo-saxonic countries (the "solmization" method"). But not in latin countries, where they are the note names used. Latin countries don't use C D E F G A B, as I said.