Pashkuli: PMN (Plain Music Notation)

[BertKoor]

But they could have chosen A as a "MIDI note 0".

Yes, they could have chosen whatever. But it's no use crying over spoilt milk or water under the bridge.

This is also related to why I have chosen B (first consonant letter in most European languages) to start where the old C is. I started form a physical and also mathematical point of view.

Let's start with silence: 0Hz
First integer tone would be: 1Hz
Its renova (octave): 1 × 2 = 2Hz
Next renova: 4Hz
Next: 8Hz, 16Hz, 32Hz (this is whereabout human hearing kicks in)

32Hz (of a tuning as it is now today as A = 440Hz, or 432 or 445) will fall between what is known as B and C.

If you take physics for limitations, the lowest note should be the threshold of human hearing at 20 Hz. 32Hz as a basis is still an arbitrary choice. As a matter of fact, whatever you pick it will be an arbitrary choice. Be it what the tuning reference frequency is, or what the names of the notes are.

There are systems with relative names (do re mi fa so is the same whatever the tonic or root of the scale is, chords in Roman numerals are also relative so if a singer wants it lower or higher you can still use the same lead sheet with chords) and systems with absolute names. Both have advantages and drawbacks. Nothing is ideal.

[gaggle of hermits]

Well... yes in anglo-saxonic countries (the "solmization" method"). But not in latin countries, where they are the note names used. Latin countries don't use C D E F G A B, as I said.

does the use of mnemonics in one place prevent the use of mnemonics in other places?

[imrae]

I am not a brass player. Had no idea. But this is so sad...
After all a player should know best their instruments and the notes those instruments produce.

I think you have a fundamentally different concept of what a "note" is than many performing musicians. Perhaps it is my singing background but relative pitches are more important than absolute pitch in most contexts.

I can only speak for guitars, as with guitars we have quite good amount of tunings to choose from and set up. And the whole scale fingering changes with each different tunings.

Lots of guitarists perform "up a step" or "down a step" from an "incorrect" chord notation because it is more convenient. They might achieve that with a capo or by retuning. Does this mean they do not "know the notes those instruments produce"? Should they re-write the part because a singer prefers to do this one at a higher pitch?

[Pashkuli]

look at the semitone and tone arrangements in the greek tetrachords. unless you understand where the semitones fall in the greater perfect system, you are going to remain as obviously confused as you are now.

Thanks, that was "helpful". I am perfectly aware of it.
Semitone is nonsense. There are only tones and integer intervals between them.
Using a special case of a 7 note structure of notes, would lead to such awful terms such as "semitone".

But that is another badly inherited "tradition".

Music (in folk domain) was divided in those tetrachords. And still can be observed as such, as I mentioned already. This is not related to what would become Ut (Do), Re, Mi... C, D, E.
Notes had names long before Europe would fall into the Dark ages. I mean all the notes, not just 7.

[gaggle of hermits]

Notes had names long before Europe would fall into the Dark ages. I mean all the notes, not just 7.

this is going to be fun. what were these names, for all the "tones" of 12tet, that is?

[Pashkuli]

If you take physics for limitations, the lowest note should be the threshold of human hearing at 20 Hz. 32Hz as a basis is still an arbitrary choice. As a matter of fact, whatever you pick it will be an arbitrary choice. Be it what the tuning reference frequency is, or what the names of the notes are.

20Hz is ok, but individual and statistical value. With age we narrow the hearing range anyway.
So unless you show a method to always get to 20Hz, it is pretty much an arbitrary value.

Yes, I agree that the method of tuning matters (or what is 1Hz really?!?). But also we do not have to tune to the exact values every time, because of resonances, timbre, modern effects on audio, etc..
But this is the "scientific" method I chose for PMN naming of notes.

B is old C (Ut, Do) and I named it Bo (good vowel to sing: Booo) also quite close to Dooo, so... not a big deal.

Took the easy to sing vowels O, A, E, U
Excluded the hard to sing: I (as in 'lips') and Ə (as in 'girl')

And there you have it: PMN
no reference to psalms, no reference to keyboard keys or whatever old A was assigned to (for some reason)

[BertKoor]

Also on a 88 grand piano keybaord the "middle" is between E and F (44 + 44)

So? Grand pianos did not always have 88 keys. Harpsichords were earlier with a traditional pitch range for a 5-octave instrument to be F1–F6 (with your B right in the middle.)

Prior to two centuries ago there was no true convention where to start or finish a organ / harpsichord / clavichord / piano keyboard. Builders did whatever they fancied or what the customer wanted.

[Pashkuli]

Lots of guitarists perform "up a step" or "down a step" from an "incorrect" chord notation because it is more convenient. They might achieve that with a capo or by retuning. Does this mean they do not "know the notes those instruments produce"? Should they re-write the part because a singer prefers to do this one at a higher pitch?

I did not mean transpositions and usage of capos. I meant detuning strings individually.
But yes, they would have to adjust fingerings to match the prescribed notes (but most guitarist use tablature, so it is not of a big concern).
Rewriting a score would be nuts, though with modern software I think transposition is just a click away. But I have not used score notations, although I have licences for Notion 6 and Overture 5.
Have MuseScore installed. Can not understand when something gets transposed.

[Pashkuli]

Also on a 88 grand piano keybaord the "middle" is between E and F (44 + 44)

So? Grand pianos did not always have 88 keys. Harpsichords were earlier with a traditional pitch range for a 5-octave instrument to be F1–F6 (with your B right in the middle.)

Prior to two centuries ago there was no true convention where to start or finish a organ / harpsichord / clavichord / piano keyboard. Builders did whatever they fancied or what the customer wanted.

Yes, that is true. So, let's assume C was chosen and thus inherited in modern MIDI-rolls as a divider, because of the middle position of C on the grand staff (G and F clefs).
I agree instruments vary in number of notes and ranges.

The question still remains though, even with those alleged considerations for "middle C".
Why is C not A then?

Who said: "A will be there, this key\note!" so C had to obey the sequence?

[fmr]

Well... yes in anglo-saxonic countries (the "solmization" method"). But not in latin countries, where they are the note names used. Latin countries don't use C D E F G A B, as I said.

does the use of mnemonics in one place prevent the use of mnemonics in other places?

If something, for latin countries C D E F G A B are the mnemonics (to read anglo-saxonic texts and fora). Do(Ut), Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, Si are the names, not mnemonics. Unless you consider any name as a mnemonic

[Pashkuli]

If something, for latin countries C D E F G A B are the mnemonics (to read anglo-saxonic texts and fora). Do(Ut), Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, Si are the names, not mnemonics. Unless you consider any name as a mnemonic.

I do not use them.
PMN uses Latin letters (for those who know them), but also can use Cyrillic, Greek, Hebrew, Hangul...
As long as it can match the "singing" syllables, any alphabet is welcome.

[BertKoor]

20Hz is ok, but individual and statistical value. With age we narrow the hearing range anyway.

The upper bound 20kHz: yes, that gets lower with age.
The lower bound 20 Hz: not so much, it's rather stable.

So unless you show a method to always get to 20Hz, it is pretty much an arbitrary value.

My point exactly. Whatever you pick, it is an arbitrary choice.

what is 1Hz really?!?

Simply vibration cycles per second.
But what is a second? Just another arbitrary chosen unit.
You gotta fixate things relative to something

But also we do not have to tune to the exact values every time

True. I don't care whether A=440 or 445 or 432 or or 415 or 395.

no reference to psalms, no reference to keyboard keys or whatever old A was assigned to (for some reason)

Right. Spoken as a true revolutionary. Start with a blank slate. Burn all bridges behind you. Destroy the corrupted history as if it never happened.

[gaggle of hermits]

If something, for latin countries C D E F G A B are the mnemonics (to read anglo-saxonic texts and fora). Do(Ut), Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, Si are the names, not mnemonics. Unless you consider any name as a mnemonic

I think there’s a misunderstanding here. The solfeggio “names” are just memory helpers (ie mnemonics). people can call the tones Dave, Dee, Dozey, Beaky, Mitch and Titch etc if they think it helps them get the right interval, though that might not be as useful as the regular systems: https://www.academia.edu/3715715/The_hi ... d_to_Japan

[imrae]

Notes had names long before Europe would fall into the Dark ages. I mean all the notes, not just 7.

this is going to be fun. what were these names, for all the "tones" of 12tet, that is?

I would also be interested in the answer to this question.

I did not mean transpositions and usage of capos. I meant detuning strings individually.

But retuning strings and applying a capo are different technical implementations of the same thing.

And transposition was the subject of the conversation around brass instruments. You said it was a shame that brass players transpose and assumed it was because they don't know their instruments well.

(but most guitarist use tablature, so it is not of a big concern).

Any data for that? I had the impression that classical guitarists use standard sheet music. Jazz guitarists read fake sheets (such as the "Real Book") which provides a melody in standard notation, with slash chord symbols above.

Rewriting a score would be nuts

But if you don't rewrite the score the notes will be wrong! I thought it was your position that this would be a bad thing?

[Pashkuli]

Right. Spoken as a true revolutionary. Start with a blank slate. Burn all bridges behind you. Destroy the corrupted history as if it never happened.

Indeed. Just a blank sheet and a pencil.
That is how PMN started.

I woke up one day and said to myself: forget what you know (been taught to) and see what you can come up with regarding writing Music with only those two tools.