Wotja 22 - Generative Music App & Plug-in Host (Free, Pro; AUv3 / VST3)

[ZincT]

@impete

One final thing to mention which I have tested...

Cubase Pro 11 and Studio One Pro 5 both work with standalone Wotja 22 and LoopBE to route the MIDI from Wotja into whichever DAW. You set the MIDI output of Wotja to LoopBE and set the MIDI input of the instrument in Cubase or S1 to LoopBE.

UPDATE: It occurred to me to have a look at MIDI monitor again in Cubase to see what difference there is to the MIDI coming via standalone Wotja through LoopBE vs the Wotja plugin. Unfortunately there are still OverLappingPitch comments in the log so the plugin issue with Cubase/S1 is still a bit of a puzzle.

[zzz00m]

I don't know if they offer NFR for developers, but the demo might be sufficient.

Also, they offer fully functional free versions of previous releases, but i do not know if those versions support the MIDI re-routing. I assume they do.

Aha - demo should be fine. Thanks for the info!!

Pete

Actually, Tracktion offers Waveform 11 Free now, instead of older versions. It's the same core program as Waveform 11 Pro, but with some Pro features omitted. >>> https://www.tracktion.com/products/waveform-free

Or the Waveform 11 Pro trial is 90-days fully functioning. Version comparison >>> https://www.tracktion.com/products/wave ... e-versions

[UncleAge]

I used to own Tracktion in the v1/v2 days (when Jules had it the first time). Back then there was a rack device which allowed for routing of midi/audio between plugins, iirc. Is that still there?

[zzz00m]

I used to own Tracktion in the v1/v2 days (when Jules had it the first time). Back then there was a rack device which allowed for routing of midi/audio between plugins, iirc. Is that still there?

The racks are still there in Waveform, and I have used them in the past to send MIDI from a single external controller thru to multiple MIDI inputs/tracks. No need to do that anymore however, as they have added virtual MIDI inputs that are easier to use than racks for that purpose.

While the racks are still very useful for routing the audio in/out connections from point A to B, I can't see any way to filter MIDI channels with them.

[Banquet]

After my disappointment that Wotja for Mac won't run in Cubase and can't host VSTS - I've just realised, when I run Cubase with Wotja open, all the midi channels from Wotja open up and I can load all my instruments and have Wotja play them. Absolutely awesome!!

[Banquet]

Hi Pete,

A quick question from my post above. In Cubase, while Wotja is open as a standalone app, I am getting midi input options from Wotja for Channels 1-16 and Tracks 1-12. As far as I can see the channels are the midi channels, while the tracks are the cells? So, I think I would need channels 1-16 for each of the 12 tracks, but I can either pick channels 1-16 OR tracks 1-12.

Does selecting a track give me all midi channels combined, and selecting channels 1-16 give me that midi channel, but on which track?

Edit, with a bit more testing, Channels 1-16 seem to send the DAW the midi channels 1-16 for all tracks. (So if you had 16 active tracks, setting channel 1 would send the DAW all the midi channel 1 data from all 12 tracks. Setting track 1-12 seem to send the combined midi channels for tracks 1-12... so setting Track 1 would send the DAW all midi channels from Track 1.

Cubase has a function 'dissolve part' which separates a track recorded with different midi channel info into a separate track for each midi channel. So, to record an entire Wotja track in Cubase with your own VSTs, it's better to record each track (not midi channels) as you can then dissolve each track into a separate track for each midi channel, which you give you the entire Wotja track in Cubase. So I'll use track, rather than channel. If you recorded each midi channel instead, Cubase wouldn't be able to dissolve the same midi channels from each track into separate elements.

[impete]

I do feel, if I disable a sound generator, for whatever reason, then I don't want Wotja, to create another, invisible one with a sound I haven't chosen, to continue playing. Whatever the purpose of me turning off a sound generator, the engine shouldn't be doing things in the background to reverse what I'm doing.

Hi! I feel I might be missing something here i.e. not quite understanding the problem, so do please bear with me as I want to really understand the issue.

Bit of historical background on MIDI and Audio support in our software.
- Koan was a MIDI generator, pure and simple. It sent MIDI data to your specified MIDI output device (maybe only the Windows MIDI Mapper - it was a long time ago, I don't exactly remember!)
- Koan 2 (IIRC) we added our first modular synth (I'm not sure exactly what version - I'd really need to dig-down to find out!) In this configuration, we continued to send MIDI data to the MIDI device; but also internally to the internal synth. The general mode of behaviour ("use case") was that you'd choose to use the MIDI device (and mute any synth output), or you'd use the synth output (and the MIDI data could be ignored). Both systems continue to work simultaneously; for Koan 2, timings were driven from the audio .
- Noatikl 1 was complete rewrite of the Koan concept, but without the modular synth (as we had no access to the original source code at that time), so sent MIDI only. That was either to your specified MIDI device (in the app version) or the MIDI output (in the plug-in version). This had both App and Plug-in
- miniMIXA was audio only (when we were at Tao Group)
- when Intermorphic got access to the Tao Group source code, we created:
- Mixtikl 1 (2008): a JUCE-based evolution of miniMIXA, adding MIDI output, and with a plug-in. For the app or plug-in, you used the audio (and ignored MIDI), or used the MIDi (and ignored the audio) - timings were driven through the audio device or plug-in interface (depending on configuration).
- Noatikl 2 (2012): including the Partikl synth in Mixtikl (these days called the Wotja Audio Engine)
For both of these, the Audio and MIDI systems continue to work simultaneously; from Noatikl 2 and Mixtikl up to Wotja, timings have been driven through the audio device or plug-in interface (depending on configuration).
- Wotja 1 onwards: this has evolved as a hybrid of Noatikl and Mixtikl, but the principle remains the same - use the audio (and ignore the MIDI), or use the MIDi (and ignore the audio); audio or plug-in drives the timings
- 2021: last year, we added the AUv3 plug-in to Wotja 21
- 2022: this year we added both VST3 and plug-in hosting to Wotja 22

You can see that we've focused on both MIDI and Audio through our history, depending where what we were focusing on at any one time. We see both as equally important. MIDI is key for using external "gear" (these days, also including e.g. virtual VST3/AUv3 synth plug-ins), and Audio is key for sound portability and for those users who don't have/use MIDI gear and/or plug-ins.

In system terms, they both have equal importance; but all timings internally are driven by the active audio system (be that actual audio device, or a plug-in interface from a host DAW). In Wotja, one can't exist without the other. We're a hybrid!

Anyhow, a simple example.

If you create an empty mix, and add a Generator.
If you only want to use the audio (which has probably been our primary focus over the past few years, with all the developments in our audio engine), you'd ignore the MIDI output
If you only want to use the MIDI, you'd need to mute the audio

The app doesn't actually know if you're using the MIDI from your generator to drive external hardware, or if you're listening to the audio engine being driven by that MIDI data.

Does that clarify things at all?

Pete

[impete]

Hi Pete,

A quick question from my post above. In Cubase, while Wotja is open as a standalone app, I am getting midi input options from Wotja for Channels 1-16 and Tracks 1-12. As far as I can see the channels are the midi channels, while the tracks are the cells? So, I think I would need channels 1-16 for each of the 12 tracks, but I can either pick channels 1-16 OR tracks 1-12.

Does selecting a track give me all midi channels combined, and selecting channels 1-16 give me that midi channel, but on which track?

Edit, with a bit more testing, Channels 1-16 seem to send the DAW the midi channels 1-16 for all tracks. (So if you had 16 active tracks, setting channel 1 would send the DAW all the midi channel 1 data from all 12 tracks. Setting track 1-12 seem to send the combined midi channels for tracks 1-12... so setting Track 1 would send the DAW all midi channels from Track 1.

Cubase has a function 'dissolve part' which separates a track recorded with different midi channel info into a separate track for each midi channel. So, to record an entire Wotja track in Cubase with your own VSTs, it's better to record each track (not midi channels) as you can then dissolve each track into a separate track for each midi channel, which you give you the entire Wotja track in Cubase. So I'll use track, rather than channel. If you recorded each midi channel instead, Cubase wouldn't be able to dissolve the same midi channels from each track into separate elements.

I'll try to clarify from my perspective.

On macOS and iOS, JUCE allows us to create virtual MIDI output devices where we can filter MIDI in a number of days (Omni, or by MIDI Channel, or by Track). Last I checked, JUCE didn't offer this capability on Windows. If it does, and I'm missing something, please let me know!

In Cubase, while Wotja is open as a standalone app, I am getting midi input options from Wotja for Channels 1-16 and Tracks 1-12

This makes me think that you must be using Cubase/Wotja on macOS?

So on iOS and macOS, you can easily route MIDI from the App version of Wotja using Wotja's virtual MIDI devices. This isn't an option on the AUv3 plug-in, as AUv3 extensions can't create Virtual MIDI ports due to a sandbox restriction.

So Track 1 virtual midi device - yes, this has all MIDI Channel data that is active on Wotja Track 1
MIDI 1 virtual MIDI device - yes, this has all MIDI 1 Channel data that is active on all Wotja tracks.

If this isn't clear, please try asking me again in a different way

Pete

[impete]

UPDATE: It occurred to me to have a look at MIDI monitor again in Cubase to see what difference there is to the MIDI coming via standalone Wotja through LoopBE vs the Wotja plugin. Unfortunately there are still OverLappingPitch comments in the log so the plugin issue with Cubase/S1 is still a bit of a puzzle.

Can you please share something of what the Log looks like? This is a bit mysterious!

EDIT: sorry, just seen logs via email

NB we don't have access to Cubase...

Pete

[tatanka]

One question and one request for now:

- any idea when the win 10 update will be available, its still not there

- its great that you have added something on the ryhtmn part with the euclidean sequncer and some drums for version 22 but I still miss ANYTHING for melodies. The BP0 is still the only thing kind of "melodic" but does not really produce melodies. I know its "ambient" but if now drums belong to ambient I think melodies should too . I miss especiall something useable for voice melodies cause that is really something needed for ambient stuff in my opinion. So would be great if anything in this direction (when the worst bugs have been fixed of course) could be added this year.

[impete]

One question and one request for now:

- any idea when the win 10 update will be available, its still not there

Sorry - I just checked, and it is still awaiting certification by Microsoft. Delays by all the stores aren't uncommon, and are entirely unpredictable! But very annoying for us all

- its great that you have added something on the ryhtmn part with the euclidean sequncer and some drums for version 22 but I still miss ANYTHING for melodies. The BP0 is still the only thing kind of "melodic" but does not really produce melodies. I know its "ambient" but if now drums belong to ambient I think melodies should too . I miss especiall something useable for voice melodies cause that is really something needed for ambient stuff in my opinion. So would be great if anything in this direction (when the worst bugs have been fixed of course) could be added this year.

Thanks for asking. We have lots of plans in this (and many!) areas, but it is hard to predict (and impossible to promise!) as we've got a list of things to do as long as my arm (as the phrase goes...) and there are only two of us!

I hope you'll hang around with Wotja and see how it continues to evolve.

With best wishes,

Pete

[Banquet]

Hi Pete,

A quick question from my post above. In Cubase, while Wotja is open as a standalone app, I am getting midi input options from Wotja for Channels 1-16 and Tracks 1-12. As far as I can see the channels are the midi channels, while the tracks are the cells? So, I think I would need channels 1-16 for each of the 12 tracks, but I can either pick channels 1-16 OR tracks 1-12.

Does selecting a track give me all midi channels combined, and selecting channels 1-16 give me that midi channel, but on which track?

Edit, with a bit more testing, Channels 1-16 seem to send the DAW the midi channels 1-16 for all tracks. (So if you had 16 active tracks, setting channel 1 would send the DAW all the midi channel 1 data from all 12 tracks. Setting track 1-12 seem to send the combined midi channels for tracks 1-12... so setting Track 1 would send the DAW all midi channels from Track 1.

Cubase has a function 'dissolve part' which separates a track recorded with different midi channel info into a separate track for each midi channel. So, to record an entire Wotja track in Cubase with your own VSTs, it's better to record each track (not midi channels) as you can then dissolve each track into a separate track for each midi channel, which you give you the entire Wotja track in Cubase. So I'll use track, rather than channel. If you recorded each midi channel instead, Cubase wouldn't be able to dissolve the same midi channels from each track into separate elements.

I'll try to clarify from my perspective.

On macOS and iOS, JUCE allows us to create virtual MIDI output devices where we can filter MIDI in a number of days (Omni, or by MIDI Channel, or by Track). Last I checked, JUCE didn't offer this capability on Windows. If it does, and I'm missing something, please let me know!

In Cubase, while Wotja is open as a standalone app, I am getting midi input options from Wotja for Channels 1-16 and Tracks 1-12

This makes me think that you must be using Cubase/Wotja on macOS?

So on iOS and macOS, you can easily route MIDI from the App version of Wotja using Wotja's virtual MIDI devices. This isn't an option on the AUv3 plug-in, as AUv3 extensions can't create Virtual MIDI ports due to a sandbox restriction.

So Track 1 virtual midi device - yes, this has all MIDI Channel data that is active on Wotja Track 1
MIDI 1 virtual MIDI device - yes, this has all MIDI 1 Channel data that is active on all Wotja tracks.

If this isn't clear, please try asking me again in a different way

Pete

Sorry, I should have said it was Mac OS. Thanks for explaining re. the midi channels which confirms what I was finding.

[Banquet]

I do feel, if I disable a sound generator, for whatever reason, then I don't want Wotja, to create another, invisible one with a sound I haven't chosen, to continue playing. Whatever the purpose of me turning off a sound generator, the engine shouldn't be doing things in the background to reverse what I'm doing.

Hi! I feel I might be missing something here i.e. not quite understanding the problem, so do please bear with me as I want to really understand the issue.

Bit of historical background on MIDI and Audio support in our software.
- Koan was a MIDI generator, pure and simple. It sent MIDI data to your specified MIDI output device (maybe only the Windows MIDI Mapper - it was a long time ago, I don't exactly remember!)
- Koan 2 (IIRC) we added our first modular synth (I'm not sure exactly what version - I'd really need to dig-down to find out!) In this configuration, we continued to send MIDI data to the MIDI device; but also internally to the internal synth. The general mode of behaviour ("use case") was that you'd choose to use the MIDI device (and mute any synth output), or you'd use the synth output (and the MIDI data could be ignored). Both systems continue to work simultaneously; for Koan 2, timings were driven from the audio .
- Noatikl 1 was complete rewrite of the Koan concept, but without the modular synth (as we had no access to the original source code at that time), so sent MIDI only. That was either to your specified MIDI device (in the app version) or the MIDI output (in the plug-in version). This had both App and Plug-in
- miniMIXA was audio only (when we were at Tao Group)
- when Intermorphic got access to the Tao Group source code, we created:
- Mixtikl 1 (2008): a JUCE-based evolution of miniMIXA, adding MIDI output, and with a plug-in. For the app or plug-in, you used the audio (and ignored MIDI), or used the MIDi (and ignored the audio) - timings were driven through the audio device or plug-in interface (depending on configuration).
- Noatikl 2 (2012): including the Partikl synth in Mixtikl (these days called the Wotja Audio Engine)
For both of these, the Audio and MIDI systems continue to work simultaneously; from Noatikl 2 and Mixtikl up to Wotja, timings have been driven through the audio device or plug-in interface (depending on configuration).
- Wotja 1 onwards: this has evolved as a hybrid of Noatikl and Mixtikl, but the principle remains the same - use the audio (and ignore the MIDI), or use the MIDi (and ignore the audio); audio or plug-in drives the timings
- 2021: last year, we added the AUv3 plug-in to Wotja 21
- 2022: this year we added both VST3 and plug-in hosting to Wotja 22

You can see that we've focused on both MIDI and Audio through our history, depending where what we were focusing on at any one time. We see both as equally important. MIDI is key for using external "gear" (these days, also including e.g. virtual VST3/AUv3 synth plug-ins), and Audio is key for sound portability and for those users who don't have/use MIDI gear and/or plug-ins.

In system terms, they both have equal importance; but all timings internally are driven by the active audio system (be that actual audio device, or a plug-in interface from a host DAW). In Wotja, one can't exist without the other. We're a hybrid!

Anyhow, a simple example.

If you create an empty mix, and add a Generator.
If you only want to use the audio (which has probably been our primary focus over the past few years, with all the developments in our audio engine), you'd ignore the MIDI output
If you only want to use the MIDI, you'd need to mute the audio

The app doesn't actually know if you're using the MIDI from your generator to drive external hardware, or if you're listening to the audio engine being driven by that MIDI data.

Does that clarify things at all?

Pete

When I create an empty mix, and then select a midi generator, a sound generator always seems to be attached on midi 1. So, for example, I have a hardware synth on midi 16 - so I drag the cable in Wotja from the midi generator to midi 16. The sound generator of this is not shaded, but once the connection is made, I hear a piano sound. So I click the sound generator and there is a wavetable module with a piano preset, and a VU meter that is showing the audio level as it plays. I can change the sounds of this to a harpsichord and it changes appropriately. I don't want a sound from Wotja's engine on this midi channel, so I delete the wavetable module. However, instead of now not hearing a sound, I still hear the harpischord. But the wavetable module and the VU is gone, so where is this sound coming from? Nowhere that I can find! If I re-add a wavetable module, it defaults to a piano preset and now the sound changes back to a piano.

I find this very frustrating. It's like deleting a track in Cubase and having it still playing invisibly, or removing an oscillator type from a VST synth to find the VST has put it back in. It feels like the engine it fighting what I'm trying to do and is unintuitive and seems non-sensical. It feels like you don't really want anyone to use Wotja without the internal sound engine and the only way around it is to via a hack.

It may well be that there's a great reason for it doing this that I don't yet understand and at least I now know I can turn the amp level down.

[UncleAge]

When I create an empty mix, and then select a midi generator, a sound generator always seems to be attached on midi 1. So, for example, I have a hardware synth on midi 16 - so I drag the cable in Wotja from the midi generator to midi 16. The sound generator of this is not shaded, but once the connection is made, I hear a piano sound. So I click the sound generator and there is a wavetable module with a piano preset, and a VU meter that is showing the audio level as it plays. I can change the sounds of this to a harpsichord and it changes appropriately. I don't want a sound from Wotja's engine on this midi channel, so I delete the wavetable module. However, instead of now not hearing a sound, I still hear the harpischord. But the wavetable module and the VU is gone, so where is this sound coming from? Nowhere that I can find! If I re-add a wavetable module, it defaults to a piano preset and now the sound changes back to a piano.

I find this very frustrating. It's like deleting a track in Cubase and having it still playing invisibly, or removing an oscillator type from a VST synth to find the VST has put it back in. It feels like the engine it fighting what I'm trying to do and is unintuitive and seems non-sensical. It feels like you don't really want anyone to use Wotja without the internal sound engine and the only way around it is to via a hack.

It may well be that there's a great reason for it doing this that I don't yet understand and at least I now know I can turn the amp level down.

+1

[Cochrane]

NB we don't have access to Cubase...

Pete

Hi,
I think you could request a Cubase NFR license: you are certainly a well established developer and I think it's interest also for Steinberg having a working Wotja on their DAW!

In the meantime, there should be a demo version downloadable from Steinberg site: Cubase is too much important not to cope with it!

Just 2 cents,
Cochrane