Pashkuli: PMN (Plain Music Notation)

[Pashkuli]

On meta level, I believe that it is (usually) easier to popularize a product/system/etc. via incremental small steps - evolution rather than revolution. So to gather a larger audience, it would be beneficial to work from concepts already familiar to large number of people.

Not sure whether that is necessary. (sarcasm, not towards you)
As one of the "experts" here said, that PMN is merely a 'reskin' of the traditional notation.
Ignorance is not a bad thing, but when you have the info and details on a topic and do not want to read it, but start commenting and make judgments... well, then that ignorance becomes stupidity.

[Erisian]

On meta level, I believe that it is (usually) easier to popularize a product/system/etc. via incremental small steps - evolution rather than revolution. So to gather a larger audience, it would be beneficial to work from concepts already familiar to large number of people.

Not sure whether that is necessary. (sarcasm, not towards you)
As one of the "experts" here said, that PMN is merely a 'reskin' of the traditional notation.
Ignorance is not a bad thing, but when you have the info and details on a topic and do not want to read it, but start commenting and make judgments... well, then that ignorance becomes stupidity.

I read and what I read was a bunch of word salad about a system that requires one to memorize every individual detail rather than a few simple principles that can be applied across the board, and I read about how a system that has stood the test of time and still stands today and functions perfectly well is somehow inferior to your system. I made judgements on the basis of what I read, not what I didn't read. What about you?

[fmr]

It seems you were simply badly taught, or you refused to make hat small effort necessary to understand the rationality behind the system.

Nothing new as info. I know the origin. That is why I think it is not appropriate today.
A, B, C, D... for music notes is just a lazy job. Nothing else.
Stave's clefs\accidentals are a workaround for bad design.

A, B, C, D,... are just names. They are not used in notation. They aren't even universally used, as I already wrote. Notation DOESN'T USE NAMES.

Clefs and accidents are what allows you to compact more than 36 pitches in a Grand Staff with just a couple of extra lines.

[Pashkuli]

I made judgements on the basis of what I read, not what I didn't read. What about you?

Ok, I think you were not the guy with the "reskin" comparison.
I do not know what have you read. Seems you do not have the capacity anymore to learn, which would be the norm if you are above 40yo. This is not meant to be a disrespectful comment. It is how our brains work... as the norm with aging.
We tend to like\prefer more the things we have invested time and effort to master and oppose new\alternatives.
I never said "standard notation is inferior" to PMN.
I said PMN is an alternative to the standard notation. Not an improvement, but a overall replacement.

[Erisian]

Seems you do not have the capacity anymore to learn, which would be the norm if you are above 40yo. This is not meant to be a disrespectful comment. It is how our brains work... as the norm with aging.

Learning is, admittedly, not as fluid as it used to be but I'm not entirely incapable, after all I moved to Sweden 6 and a half years ago and had to learn a new language. I saw how much easier the younger immigrants found it but I think I have done quite well considering. I recognize that you meant no disrespect. I'm going to try again to stay out of this thread and I wish you good luck.

[Pashkuli]

A, B, C, D,... are just names. They are not used in notation.

Exactly. Names of what? Only 7 notes.
Not even names, those are letter designations over those 7 ("apparently special") notes from the sequence of Latin alphabet.

brahms-symphony-4.jpg

[N__K]

As I eventually learned the staff, I kept experiencing the "7 + alterations" paradigm as much less comfortable than 12 dedicated lines/grid spaces.

As far as I understand, that is because "7 + alterations" requires additional cognitive step when decoding: "is it natural, or altered in some way?"
For all my efforts, I have not been able to train my internal neural networks to do that step as fluently as I'd wish; which is part of why I prefer to utilize piano roll whenever that suffices.

It seems you were simply badly taught, or you refused to make hat small effort necessary to understand the rationality behind the system.

I do understand at least some amount of that rationality, as I do use the traditional staff occasionally.

By "7 + alterations", I mean the fact that staff notation has 7 naturals, and other pitches are communicated as their alterations, alongside the clef and/or elsewhere in notation.

If the staff is your "native musical notation" it's obvious that you would experience it as most natural.

For me, however, the piano roll is simply much closer to how I naturally perceive and conceive of "pitches at time positions, and their durations". I am fairly certain that it cannot be changed by any amount of attempted brain rewiring - anymore than you can be "re-educated" to prefer to use current version of PMN instead of the staff


***

Also... please do not presume to pass judgement from perspective of your own reality on how much personal effort I have or have not expended in learning. We are not clones of eachother, and cannot be expected to have same attributes in all areas, including cognitive abilities.

For example, if you were a 2,5m tall basketball player and I were a 4ft tall hobbit, it would be useless to say that I have not spent enough effort to grow taller

I don't know if you are anglo-saxonic, but if you are, you are certainly conscious of the somehow arbitrary and somehow irrational orthography that is the basis of English. Due to the many sources incorporated, you have lost of phonemes that may be written differently depending on the source language that originated the words. Yet, I don't see you complaining about that (maybe you do, I don't know).

If this was a linguistics forum, I might call current English (and a few others) out for the cognitively demanding, exceptions-filled, memorization-requiring hodgepodge I experience them as However, it must be noted that I am not a linguist by training, and that English is indeed my second language.

In comparison, my "first language" is agglutinative, arguably much simpler in grammar, and - at least in my experience - requires remembering far fewer exception cases than English. One could say that it was made for my brain, although outside of genetic factors, the reality is of course the opposite.

In any case, I'm fairly certain that our languages shape the way we are able to think also about other things. So perhaps my personal preferences of musical notation is to some extent a reflection of my linguistic heritages, in addition to cognitive factors.

To use this system in a more advanced way, and with some "chromatic changes", the piano roll will reveal itself to be rather difficult and cumbersome, and will not allow you to quickly get a picture of what's happening.

I believe we conceptualize music in very different ways

I do not group pitches in quite the same way you described; to me intervals and their combinations are more like a "color palette" - or, to be more precise, "aesthetic experience and emotional catalyst palette". I paint anything anywhere as long as it suits my intentions, even when I make almost-traditional "tonal" music.

Scales and modes I treat mostly as "sets"; that is, helpers to arrive at specific harmonic or melodic progressions, when that is required. For my musical purposes, the 12-pitch piano roll serves well enough, although I do have ideas on how to improve that, too.


EDIT: fixed typo

[BertKoor]

Another great example of 'whataboutism' brought to you on the table.

It is the title of the piece, dude. It ain't part of the notation. For convenience (not unusual for classical pieces) it has the key in the title.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._4_(Brahms)

Symphony No. 4 in E minor

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Moll

e-Moll ist eine Tonart des Tongeschlechts Moll, die auf dem Grundton e aufbaut.

The Germans call E-Flat just Es.

[Pashkuli]

For my musical purposes, the 12-pitch piano roll serves well enough, although I do have ideas on how to improve that, too.

I would not consider that as an off-topic if you'd like to share those improvements here.
Because in essence PMN is somehow related to MIDI-roll.

I think MIDI-roll is more suitable for digital colour display monitors.
For print it would be a disaster. Also it requires underlying layout (stripes, lines) as reference.
Otherwise recognizing interval distance and pitch would be an absolute nightrmare.

Here is an example:

what.jpg

grid.jpg

[Hink]

this thread brought a question to my mind.

We have several methods of reading text, alphabets are all different, but of course all of that is language and culture based. While in fact reading text is not as universal reading music.

You know what though? All those languages, alphabets, writing styles...one thing they do have in common is dyslexia.

Could there be a condition similar to dyslexia, one where the one with it just does not see the notes, staff and all the same as others do? Can something like word blindness also exist with music on paper?

[vurt]

this thread brought a question to my mind.

We have several methods of reading text, alphabets are all different, but of course all of that is language and culture based. While in fact reading text is not as universal reading music.

You know what though? All those languages, alphabets, writing styles...one thing they do have in common is dyslexia.

Could there be a condition similar to dyslexia, one where the one with it just does not see the notes, staff and all the same as others do? Can something like word blindness also exist with music on paper?

its called "jazz".

[Erisian]

this thread brought a question to my mind.

We have several methods of reading text, alphabets are all different, but of course all of that is language and culture based. While in fact reading text is not as universal reading music.

You know what though? All those languages, alphabets, writing styles...one thing they do have in common is dyslexia.

Could there be a condition similar to dyslexia, one where the one with it just does not see the notes, staff and all the same as others do? Can something like word blindness also exist with music on paper?

There is a condition called dyscalculia which includes such
https://www.understood.org/articles/en/ ... yscalculia

https://tracscotland.org/blog/being-an- ... ie-duncan/

Dyscalculia has been researched far less than Dyslexia or ADHD, so it is likely that only the most severe cases (like me!) are diagnosed. I am a full-time musician who cannot read music. I am a woman in her twenties that cannot read a clock.

[Pashkuli]

It is the title of the piece, dude.

Wow, really?! Ok, so then it makes sense to use those A, B, C, D, E, F, G if otherwise there could be a mismatch of titles. Imagine the apostasy naming your symphony otherwise and not using the note letters.

[Hink]

this thread brought a question to my mind.

We have several methods of reading text, alphabets are all different, but of course all of that is language and culture based. While in fact reading text is not as universal reading music.

You know what though? All those languages, alphabets, writing styles...one thing they do have in common is dyslexia.

Could there be a condition similar to dyslexia, one where the one with it just does not see the notes, staff and all the same as others do? Can something like word blindness also exist with music on paper?

There is a condition called dyscalculia which includes such
https://www.understood.org/articles/en/ ... yscalculia

https://tracscotland.org/blog/being-an- ... ie-duncan/

Dyscalculia has been researched far less than Dyslexia or ADHD, so it is likely that only the most severe cases (like me!) are diagnosed. I am a full-time musician who cannot read music. I am a woman in her twenties that cannot read a clock.

I thought about that, Asher has this, really he cannot do math at all.

I dont think it can be put in the same context though, simply because math adds another dimension, calculation, a process...reading is fairly streamlined, while you need to interpret what you have read you dont need to do calculations and possess even more more skills in such a way as one does with math. This adds so much to the equation (pun totally intended ), and perhaps alternates wont change the system for all. Perhaps like so much in this world perhaps alternate methods might just be the key to understanding for a very few

[Pashkuli]

Of course we are all different. Never had any problems learning guitars\tabs and drums.
Had lots of trouble learning piano and standard notation. Still can't although have used them in basic form and occasions.

When I find something too difficult I crate my own redesign, deconstructing it first.
To deconstruct is also a learning process without the need of application. More like a research but from technical stand point.