Pashkuli: PMN (Plain Music Notation)

[jancivil]

because they cannot see beyond themselves, in fact some cant even grasp the fact that if it works for you, that is really all that matters.

That's a fact? Sorry, it simply isn't, that is a personal opinion ex nihilo. It matters to some here, that bad information is being tried out on a forum that's supposed to help in the understanding. For a solipsist, that would be all that matters, this is not a personal diary of an individual, strangely enough. "Some can't even grasp" you have zero evidence here's anyone that can't grasp that concept, you're reaching. Why, one may ask.

[Pashkuli]

Forums are place for discussion.
Music is an art. As such all rules are just recommendations and not anything set in stone forever.
I think of everything Music related as a constant changing flow.
Music notation and so called "theory" is just one of the "rules" in relation to Music.

Let's leave aside the fact that most people in some form related to music creation (even some of the popular names in Music) do not know how to read\write music on paper (as a notation).

As many disciplines in education Music notation and related rules are mostly "job roles" in Music related institutions.

[Hink]

Honestly my point is that some cant see that there might be a use for this because they cannot see beyond themselves

So, are you offering an argument in affirmation of the PMN or just insulting people and impuging their integrity for being critical
(rhetorical question)

Jan, f**k off

It isn't fair to tell people what they understand or read all that into a criticism on the merits.
I feel free enough here to say that isn't any kind of a point, it's just calling people out as having some imaginary lack, which is hardly moderate.

Jan, what part of f**k off do you not get? I dont care what you think and I dont know why you would think that I care what you think. There is no reason I should take any abuse from you or anyone else, you dont like me, got it I am the most obtuse person you ever met, got it I am a terrible mod, got it I'm a loser, got it Anymore, no problem..got it You got a miilion of em

I'm doing just fine without your wisdom (or whatever you think your hate is), trust me.

I also know that no matter what I ever say it wont be right in your eyes got it...seems like a great time to tell you to f**k off...you have said it to me often enough.

The thread is not about me or my modding, I made a comment which I am entitled to do just as you are and I know responding to any point you are trying to make will only bring hate on me, there is quite a precedent, so f**k off.

I almost posted that...then

because they cannot see beyond themselves, in fact some cant even grasp the fact that if it works for you, that is really all that matters.

That's a fact? Sorry, it simply isn't, that is a personal opinion ex nihilo. It matters to some here, that bad information is being tried out on a forum that's supposed to help in the understanding. For a solipsist, that would be all that matters, this is not a personal diary of an individual, strangely enough. "Some can't even grasp" you have zero evidence here's anyone that can't grasp that concept, you're reaching. Why, one may ask.

Then I saw you changed your quote.

[Hink]

Forums are place for discussion.
Music is an art. As such all rules are just recommendations and not anything set in stone forever.
I think of everything Music related as a constant changing flow.
Music notation and so called "theory" is just one of the "rules" in relation to Music.

Let's leave aside the fact that most people in some form related to music creation (even some of the popular names in Music) do not know how to read\write music on paper (as a notation).

As many disciplines in education Music notation and related rules are mostly "job roles" in Music related institutions.

sorry

[shawshawraw]

Let's leave aside the fact that most people in some form related to music creation (even some of the popular names in Music) do not know how to read\write music on paper (as a notation).

Cite the source for "most", please?

[shawshawraw]

Music is an art. As such all rules are just recommendations and not anything set in stone forever.
I think of everything Music related as a constant changing flow.
Music notation and so called "theory" is just one of the "rules" in relation to Music.

When studying a music subject, for sure the theories behave like "rules" in classes as students are graded against them... But I really am seeing theories as a summary of "best practices" that have worked for many musicians and listeners alike. Some of it should be considered restricted within a genre (say classical) and/or a geographical region (say the western world), but I see the purpose as opening a door to knowing what to look so that I can function more efficiently discovering the kind of music I want to discover. Theories are meant to be broken and played with, and after all something "wrong" in music won't kill lives unlike going into the space. Music can't ever be a subject as rigorous

[Pashkuli]

Let's leave aside the fact that most people in some form related to music creation (even some of the popular names in Music) do not know how to read\write music on paper (as a notation).

Cite the source for "most", please?

Those who did not have to go to Music colleges and such. Yes, they maybe had a lesson or a few in Music theory, solfege\notation... but I have never seen anyone writing music with a score.
In my observation more than 3/4 of any people amateurs, semi-pro or even pro use MIDI-rolls to write music and MIDI to store data.
Some may convert and edit that into a standard score but that would happen wore for a special task in performance or for other trained musicians.

I have never written a single chord or even a bar (besides for comparison tests) in traditional score.
I know none of my friends who are all amateur and semi-pro musicians have not done it either. Maybe an exception or two...

Mostly old people I have seen reaching for music score blanks. But even they prefer the MIDI-roll.
Of course my circle (friends) is fairly closed one: 20 people\musicians at most.

[Pashkuli]

Some of it should be considered restricted within a genre (say classical) and/or a geographical region (say the western world), but I see the purpose as opening a door to knowing what to look so that I can function more efficiently discovering the kind of music I want to discover.

I come from the folklore tradition and you could say Eastern tradition. My grandad played some of those instruments and clarinet.
I never played "orchestral instrument" (flute, violin, cello, clarinet, trumpet, etc.) nor piano.
Mostly guitars and drums.

Music theory to me is not a "theory", because Music is an art form. Thus rules I prefer to consider them as styles of playing.

I like some musical ideas of very old times (baroque, classic, romantic, etc.) which are not really from folklore traditional music, but not all of it.
Those old classical pieces are too much (overwhelming) for me today. But back then people (those composers) did not have much anything else to do really (no tv, no internet, no computers, cars, robotics, they could not even listen to music unless someone played it in real time!).

This made them extremely good musician and also the composition they wrote were quite... bloated.
Many if not all such composers "stole ideas" from common folk musicians. That is no secret to anyone. Common folks could rarely afford to go to an opera or concerto. Maybe once in an year or two. For some once in a lifetime.

[shawshawraw]

Those who did not have to go to Music colleges and such. Yes, they maybe had a lesson or a few in Music theory, solfege\notation... but I have never seen anyone writing music with a score.
In my observation more than 3/4 of any people amateurs, semi-pro or even pro use MIDI-rolls to write music and MIDI to store data.
Some may convert and edit that into a standard score but that would happen wore for a special task in performance or for other trained musicians.

I have never written a single chord or even a bar (besides for comparison tests) in traditional score.
I know none of my friends who are all amateur and semi-pro musicians have not done it either. Maybe an exception or two...

Mostly old people I have seen reaching for music score blanks. But even they prefer the MIDI-roll.
Of course my circle (friends) is fairly closed one: 20 people\musicians at most.

If it's your observation you should say "the fact that most people I know..." or "I think most people..." but not "the fact that most people..." it's misleading reading from the text.

[Pashkuli]

If it's your observation you should say "the fact that most people I know..." or "I think most people..." but not "the fact that most people..." it's misleading reading from the text.

Well, if I have to include people over the internet... that may even raise the number quite exponentially for those who do not write music using standard score notation.
But again... there are so many people... more than 9 billion as of 01.01.2022 and on.
It is my observation that young people do not use score notation unless they have to... for classes and such.

[N__K]

For my musical purposes, the 12-pitch piano roll serves well enough, although I do have ideas on how to improve that, too.

I would not consider that as an off-topic if you'd like to share those improvements here.

Well, all of those ideas are for digital implementations, but I guess there's no harm in presenting them.



1) representation of actual pitch as a line inside the note block, somewhat like Melodyne; with possibility of per-note automation of it, like in Bitwig and Cubase.



2) possibility to set tuning of each MIDI note (row of piano roll) individually, for microtonal and "non-octavic" tunings, with that being visually displayed in the piano roll.

In other words, if the piano roll is tuned to non-equal distances between pitches, that should be visually represented in height of rows (and perhaps a centerline in the rows, signifying the exact pitch).

Technically, I suppose the easiest implementation would be to calculate the tunings as deviations from 12-TET, but it could be also interesting if pitch rows could be set to specific Hz values.



3) showing at least some articulations visually inside the note block

Arguably, this is what per-note automation in Cubase already allows, if those articulations are done as automation instead of envelopes inside the virtual instrument - but it would be interesting to see, for example, synths communicating their envelope shape to the host and that being displayed (even if only as a tiny graphic) in the piano roll note itself.



4) standard support for "traditional" articulations etc. inherited from staff notation, and displaying them visually per-note in the piano roll.

In other words, I'd like a "MIDI 2.0 piano roll of the future" to support communicating at least some of things that are lacking from MIDI today, compared to the staff scores.

Currently, we have a number of workarounds for communicating articulations/directions/etc. to orchestral VSTis via old "MIDI 1.x".
But none are as simple as, for example, selecting a MIDI note meant for a violin and by one click defining it as "up bow", with that being communicated as a standardized message to the virtual instrument.

Visually, if such as system would be implemented, I'd be in favor of initially reusing articulation symbols from standard notation and overlaying them on individual piano roll notes; HOWEVER, I believe that for some cases it would be better to attempt to create new symbols that correlate more closely to what they mean (again, less symbolic, more iconic).

Cubase can be mentioned as attempting to do some of that. But I'd hope for a standard implementation across DAWs and virtual instruments, with messages and visual signs being per-note, as MIDI 2.0 would allow.

***

As said, that was almost entirely for DAWs, so not very relevant here, but there it is anyway...

I think MIDI-roll is more suitable for digital colour display monitors.
For print it would be a disaster.

Well, there are examples such as Klavarskribo notation ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klavarskribo ), that are very close to being printed piano rolls. Some people apparently have appreciated that, although it remains a niche alternative notation. And nowadays Synthesia (the app/game: https://synthesiagame.com/ ) uses even further simplified pianoroll interface in digital form.


Regarding the need to use reference lines and clefs in both standard notation and pianorolls: why do you consider important that PMN should not need similar lines/grids/rows?

Is it related to there being multiple rows of keys on Janko/Chromatone style layout of your keyboards, to which "one-dimensional" lines of staff and pianoroll are not visually useful?
Or do you find it challenging to cognitively process the reference lines/grids when sight-reading - comparable to how I have trouble with processing symbolic associations?

[N__K]

Could there be a condition similar to dyslexia, one where the one with it just does not see the notes, staff and all the same as others do? Can something like word blindness also exist with music on paper?

That reminds of a fellow on FL Studio forums who has told of having dyslexia and dyscalculia, but is persistently training himself in musical skills both new and traditional - including reading and writing staff notation.

He is having considerable challenges in some areas, but appears to be making overall progress.

I don't know whether he'll ever reach "professional proficiency" in reading and writing standard notation, but to me, his efforts in general are admirable and inspiring.

[Hink]

Could there be a condition similar to dyslexia, one where the one with it just does not see the notes, staff and all the same as others do? Can something like word blindness also exist with music on paper?

That reminds of a fellow on FL Studio forums who has told of having dyslexia and dyscalculia, but is persistently training himself in musical skills both new and traditional - including reading and writing staff notation.

He is having considerable challenges in some areas, but appears to be making overall progress.

I don't know whether he'll ever reach "professional proficiency" in reading and writing standard notation, but to me, his efforts in general are admirable and inspiring.

I agree, that's awesome, that is an awesome coping skill that he wont soon forget imo...ty

[Pashkuli]

This is a question to all the participants in this thread about PMN.

The lengthy discussion so far made me realise that PMN should not favour anything with regards to assigning letters to the 12 notes, nor should it favour any segregation between the 12 notes as they would appear on a standard piano.

With this said, PMN is still in progress and currently going through the change as illustrated bellow. The current state is about to change as it favours somehow the Latin alphabet, C major and the standard piano layout.

current state problems:
· Latin alphabet starts from old C and although skips alphabet letters it follows the sequence
· semi-ovals and heart-shaped noteheads clearly point to the group of black keys respectively

PMN-map.jpg

Letter from three major alphabets have been considered. I excluded standard Chinese 普通话, Hindu\Bangla Devangari देवनागरी, Persian الفبای فارسی and Arabic الْأَبْجَدِيَّة الْعَرَبِيَّة, as well as Turcik, Malay\Indonesian, because I either found them too complex for the task or some of those people have adopted Latin or Cyrillic alphabets already (mostly).

Changes happened only to F, L (got swapped) for somehow better graphical match.

note-letters of PMN to be changed to:

music notes.jpg

The main task is to assign those noteheads to the notes... and giving them names.
· names to start with the consonants and end up in 3 same-vaowel notes with either of these vowels: O, A, E, U
· names could favour so called "augmented" arpeggio (0·4·8) as it is symmetric and not really used that much (example: Bo·Lo·Ro)

Also, just because it is possible, please, do not segregate note-letters into voiceless (F, P, R, T, S) and voiced (B, D, G, L, M, N, V) consonants to match the "black" and "white" keys respectively. I had that in mind, but it would be another "favourisation".

[vurt]

it would make it much easier, which ever alphabet you choose, if it ran from 1 - 12. (1 being which ever letter you decide is your favourite to start)
the jumping up and down the alphabet makes it less logical imo.