Pashkuli: PMN (Plain Music Notation)

[shawshawraw]

· hence your "I-IV-V" is "O-V-VII" (O stands for rOOt: "oh-five-seven")

Wait right here. Isn't it that your system uses different symbols for different absolute pitches?

[Pashkuli]

Wait right here. Isn't it that your system uses different symbols for different absolute pitches?

It does. You have a favourite tonality or mode\scale, good.
Write it the way it is out of 12 steps. Do not refer it to some special case of "major scale".
Even if you want to modulate or "seven note scale" and such you will replace two letters, three maybe.

I doubt people play favourite songs in all 12 roots.

[shawshawraw]

It does. You have a favourite tonality or mode\scale, good.
Write it the way it is out of 12 steps. Do not refer it to some special case of "major scale".
Even if you want to modulate or "seven note scale" and such you will replace two letters, three maybe.

I doubt people play favourite songs in all 12 roots.

A given key does not restrict everything to a specific scale ok? Say Bb | Db7 | C7 | F7 | Bb, we're bound to play something different over Db7 and C7.

If we jot down the solos/comps as notes to be played, on common music notation we'll immediately observe something different in terms of accidental sharps/flats on these two moments. While on your system everything appears the same until the reader parses the symbols.

To service the key of Bb, I'll want an explicit notation showing me Db7 and C7 moments are offering a different color than when things are around the key center. If you don't want this part it's fine, but many musicians do, so adjust your targeted audience or find a way to incorporate this perspective.

[Pashkuli]

I am not sure what do you mean by "key centre".
In PMN all you need is a root note (also a renova separator). It gives you all the "keys" or scale formulas and if you want to refer to a specific one, you can write its "characteristic" intervals.

A key of "X major" does not mean much, because there are many modes with a fourth in them (old "major third") including biharmonic major and melodic major. Also, certain modes as Lydian and Myxolidian (the natural dominant major).

I think you are talking about specific style of music, that abides to special cadences.
They go to the Dominant chord (called dominant because it resonates all the notes within the scale as a consequence of the ability to construct more diatonic chords than any of the other modes in the scale), and seek "to resolve" to the first degree.
It is just a style of music structure.

Scale formulas are spelled relative to the major scale and that "standard" way of spelling is completely unacceptable in PMN.

The melodic major scale is spelled (relative to the major scale):
1 2 3 4 5 ♭6 ♭7 (as notes)

So, it has the implied "major 3rd".
As intervals usually the ♭ gets spelled as 'minor' (in the above case, minor 6th, minor 7th). Sometimes 'minor 7th' is called 'dominant 7th', because it is the natural 7th (as I explained why Dominant chord is called 'dominant').

The ambiguous current spelling of chords is also absurd: Dmaj9 or DM9
· technically implies (has to be "learnt") that the 3rd interval is present and major, not the 9th
· also it implies a "standard" inversion, root in bass\lowest but that has to be "learnt" as well
· when we get to absurdity such as G7+5♭9 and I want to take a vacation or rather... sabbatical

[shawshawraw]

Now we're talking! Keys vs modes have been discussed a few times, the consensus is (also where I'm at):

- Mode refers to a specific sonority where music needs to stay for a while, during which dominant-tonic resolution is strongly discouraged.
- Key involves a developed set of functional harmonies (most notably the dominant-tonic resolution) around the "key center".

I can agree that this cadence thing is "only" heard in "specific style" of music, such as pop, rock, blues, jazz, metal, hip-hop, dance, classical, ...

Let me use my earlier example to give some examples of what you can do when developing a key: Bb | Db7 | C7 | F7 | Bb

Bb (Bb major scale) | Db7 (Ab real melodic scale, or if you wish, call it Eb melodic major scale) | C7 (F major scale, or if you wish, call it Bb Lydian scale) | F7 (Bb major scale) | Bb

Bb | Db7 | C7 | F7alt9 (yes you can b and # the 9. Still valid F7 as long as the rest of the band agrees. Eb real melodic scale, or if you wish, call it Bb melodic major scale) | Bb

Bb | Db7 | C7 | F7#5b9 (yes, your "absurdity" example - play Bb harmonic minor scale) | Bb

Time for some French vacations?

[Pashkuli]

around the "key center".

I can agree that this cadence thing is "only" heard in "specific style" of music, such as pop, rock, blues, jazz, metal, hip-hop, dance, classical, ...

What "key centre"? What are you talking about?
Some songs have such cadences: 0·V·0·V·VII·0 (bluesy)
Some simple songs have: 0·V·VII·0 or to bridge, usually modulation to another root 0.
It is a stylistic and more over – a specific structure to a song (compositional).

There are so many other cadences and progressions... to limit to a "classical" (again certain movements) to only those cadences is and gets boring. Hence such blues songs rely mostly on solo improvisation to spice it up, to compensate for the boring structure underneath.

Those progression that you wrote do not mean much to me (if anything at all).

A key (signature) refers to a major scale of a specific structure:
0·2·4·5·7·9·11 (old 1·2·3·4·5·6·7)

If you mean this structure as a key centre... this is totally unnecessary.
Why would you ever think about referring your (structure of) notes to a specific scale?

This is some indoctrination I can't really understand why people do not question and see the sheer absurdity of it.

[shawshawraw]

For your amusement, I took my example progression out of a blues practice tune, only switched the tonal chord Bb7 to Bb

Get better at this and let's talk further.

[Pashkuli]

For your amusement, I took my example progression out of a blues practice tune, only switched the tonal chord Bb7 to Bb

Get better at this and let's talk further.

Better at what? At some 'geocentric' ("natural" major centrical) model of view?
This thread is not about the old and clumsy view on music notation.

[shawshawraw]

For your amusement, I took my example progression out of a blues practice tune, only switched the tonal chord Bb7 to Bb

Get better at this and let's talk further.

Better at what? At some 'geocentric' ("natural" major centrical) model of view?
This thread is not about the old and clumsy view on music notation.

Better at why key bothers and why your notation method finds a hard time with folks who care about keys. All in all you need correct audience! Hope anything helped.

[Pashkuli]

Better at why key bothers and why your notation method finds a hard time with folks who care about keys.

You still have not explained what I asked for from your own words:
key\key centre

What do you mean by a "key" and "key centre"?
Please, no chords and examples. What is your understanding of it? What do you "see" of it?

[Pashkuli]

To help you, I can only quote the Encyclopedia Britannica:
"Key, in music, a system of functionally related chords deriving from the major and minor scales, with a central note, called the tonic (or keynote)."

I can only guess that I was right and although they do not clarify which of the many major\minor scales, I think I am again right to assume it is the so called alleged "natural" ones (which they are not as such, but that is another discussion).

I can only guess, and again, I am sure I am right about it, that by "functionally related chords" they mean certain movement\progression of those chords (not all of them), based on the notes of the "key scale".

Then we will have a bit more different scale and still will have to refer it to that "deriving" mother of all scales "natural" major\minor. This is why current music notation is such a mess.

[shawshawraw]

You still have not explained what I asked for from your own words:
key\key centre

What do you mean by a "key" and "key centre"?
Please, no chords and examples. What is your understanding of it? What do you "see" of it?

OK. Allow me speaking descriptively for a minute. The key center is where I want to sing "Do", where the melody lands like returning home, the root of the harmony that I can comfortably call "one", that any other harmonies are threaded around, and by which the scale implied can be rearranged into a handful of other chords by thirds and call them "diatonic" - by the means they're not wildly away from home yet.

Staying in a mode is like never going too far away from the home. Roaming around a key feels like there are really wild moments, and returning home can be a dramatic thing to celebrate. Mode doesn't like drama, or simply doesn't have the facilities to execute this drama.

That's my theatrical but non-theoretical answer!! I feel thrilled.

[shawshawraw]

dup

[Pashkuli]

OK. Allow me speaking descriptively for a minute. The key center is where I want to sing "Do", where the melody lands like returning home, the root of the harmony that I can comfortably call "one", that any other harmonies are threaded around, and by which the scale implied can be rearranged into a handful of other chords by thirds and call them "diatonic" - by the means they're not wildly away from home yet.

I guess that is why people do not like the word 'indoctrination', I have been using in this thread and also was advised not to use it.
I see now. And I understand the clashes of concepts. It is normal to be like that.
But I really have not "worked" with pro-musicians and people who have been trained into standard music notation and overall musical education.

We come from quite different 'schools of thought' and that is why I started this thread.
I expected to find a bit more fresh-minded people who would like to have an alternative option as a music notation... though most people use MIDI-rolls anyway.

But still, music notation is really interesting design problem for me, which I am about to solve in my own way. Actually it is done for the most part.

[shawshawraw]

Hey how 'bout the 2nd paragraph?? I really like what I just typed!!!