Lazy developers exposed by Apple M1 transition (lack of native updates)

[teilo]

I give VST3 a better chance to survive the next 10 years until there's something new and shiny though.

CLAP. Better than VST3 in every way from a technical standpoint. Developers already lining up to release CLAP versions of their plugins. Already supported by JUCE. Bitwig will be the first DAW out with support unless Reaper beats it. Open standard. No license fees. No LV2 posturing preventing it from supporting what developers need in a plugin architecture.

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=574861
https://github.com/free-audio/clap

[zvenx]

We shall see about CLAP in five years..once Steinberg, Avid and Apple do not support it, it will be a fringe format.
We shall have this convo in five years.
rsp

[FapFilter]

There seems to me a high correlation between the developers who complain about vst3 and those complaining about having to do an apple silicon native version.

rsp

Not necessarily true though:
literally every developer's opinion i read, regardless which one's (except for maybe Steinberg themself), say that VST3 has a) no real benefit over VST2 when programmed correctly and b) is comparably a PITA to develop and troubleshoot for. I think Steinberg didn't even make it's full documentations available for other developers yet, which would actually make it really silly if i am not just mistakenly make up something i think i read somewhere.
Whereas most of the complaints about development for Apple systems mostly seems to come from people who rely on third party libraries inside their code.
Those who coded most of the stuff with Apple's ideology in mind, seem to have far less headaches and adjustments seem to be minor ones that can easily be fixed.
It's of course still not great though that so much breaks with most of the OS updates so you can never be sure that everything you use will still work.

[zvenx]

Some complain and some do..and the complainers are loud.

I gave an example in another thread in the last two days.
Been helping to test a new unreleased plugin instrument from a small developer. He needed to get Audio into the instrument, Told him that as of Cubase 9, vst3 instruments can have a sidechain to allow audio in. He noted it, did his research and two days, yes literally two days later he had a new build with it working flawlessly.

Some do some complain loudly.

Waves, Fabfilter, Softube, DMG Audio and quite a few others have had vst3 plugins working great for years now..

Some do, some complain loudly.

rsp

[zvenx]

There seems to me a high correlation between the developers who complain about vst3 and those complaining about having to do an apple silicon native version.

rsp

Not necessarily true though:
.....

I am curious, can you name me three developers who have complained about vst3 who haven't about doing an apple silicon native version.
rsp

[teilo]

We shall see about CLAP in five years..once Steinberg, Avid and Apple do not support it, it will be a fringe format.
We shall have this convo in five years.
rsp

Avid and Apple have never supported VST. Does that make AU and AAX fringe?

If CLAP succeeds, all it will mean is that VST3 will lose all relevance except for Cubase/Nuendo. Never again will we be at the mercy of Steinberg when they decide to stop licensing VST 3/4/5.

[zvenx]

And no AU and AAX are not fringe. Why? Cause Logic and Pro Tools have large userbase.

We will have this convo in 5 years.

Since only ProTools use AAX, and only macs can use AU, I am guessing that vst's are the most widely used format. To displace that wouldn't be easy..

We shall see.

rsp

[plexuss]

black sheep screwdriver?

Oh come on, you can do better than that! It's quite a brilliant logo because the logo itself implies something about the customers in both the context of apple and the repair shop.

sheep noun, often attributive
\ ˈshēp \ plural sheep
2b: a timid docile person especially one easily influenced or led
(Merriam-Webster)

"ALL" their customers...[snip...]

Ok, Dad.

[jamcat]

Steinberg was in the right place at the right time to develop VST. That can't happen again, because the industry is too mature and overdeveloped at this point.

The issues with VST3 are just not great enough to warrant many developers investing in yet another format. The problem with new formats and new systems is no one will support them until everyone supports them.

The one thing the clap format could do perhaps is put pressure on Steinberg to address the complaints that some developers have, particularly their arbitrary limitation of MIDI I/O in VST3.

But I don't see it ever replacing a firmly established format like VST, that hill is just too steep to climb at this point. Even when VST plugins first came about, it was a platform only for amateurs and hobbyists, and "serious" developers only developed for DX. It sounds kind of funny now, but we had the same waiting game we have now for VST3 and M1, but instead it was for developers to finally release VST versions so we could have automation. Then we had the waiting game all over again for 64-bit support. It seems we're always waiting, and developers are always resisting. Those who can't or refuse to keep up disappear. I still miss DSP-FX and Arboretum

More recently, fxpansion stridently refused to support VST3. Where are they now? That should be a lesson for the stubborn developers, but they'll probably just insist it somehow validates their fringe format.

[Aleksey Vaneev]

Three main reasons of delayed M1 native adoption among plugin developers: 1) SSE SIMD code has to be transformed into NEON code, it can be a hassle. 2) PACE (iLok) was slow to port their protection system to M1. 3) original programmers are not with the company anymore, so no immediate possibility to go native.

[sqigls]

4) lazy developers apparently

[Aleksey Vaneev]

4) lazy developers apparently

Not willing to earn money and pay off the mortgage? Unlikely.

[sqigls]

yes this thread gets my vote for the 'most ridiculous'

[plexuss]

yes this thread gets my vote for the 'most ridiculous'

Really? I find it interesting to discuss all the different needs and expecations of customers in the context of some of the typical challenges developers have on their end. It may help customers and developers to better understand each other and avoid conflicts. I find it useful in this regard. *shrug*

[briefcasemanx]

Childish customers who want blood for a barely noticeable improvement in CPU use not happening fast enough.