Lazy developers exposed by Apple M1 transition (lack of native updates)

[jamcat]

I've cut PhoenixVerb and R2 loose. If they're never going to be M1 native, that's the end of the line for them with me. I'm also done with iZotope for good because of what they did to Exponential Audio. There's just too many developers out there to waste your time and money on shitty unethical ones.

[v1o]

Why were you so quick to adopt the M1 architecture? That's what you get for so desperately wanting to be there first and being an early adopter of new technology.

I’m repeating myself but dev kits were available to devs that wanted them in spring 2020, and first M1 came out well over a year ago.

It’s tech world, more than one year and a half isn’t “quick”, it’s already dated.

x86 has been around for five decades. M1 has been around one year. Many devs have dependencies, libraries or packages that aren't translated to M1 yet. Liquidsonics for example were held back by iLok. Tech is not only about new stuff, you also need the old stuff.

[Aleksey Vaneev]

Yeah, getting Apple M1-ready libraries of popular packages is a hurdle as well. Most can't be built out-of-the-box as "fat" libraries, for x86 and ARM together. Some have pre-built libraries with support claim, but do not work in fact.

[GusGranite]

So first of all, SoftSynthLover99 said he was quitting KVR, so I don't think he's going to change the thread title.

Second of all, it is what it is. It's already been said, why change it? The attitude used to be: if you don't like what you're seeing, change the channel. Now unfortunately it seems to be: demand an apology, retraction, public flogging and cancellation. It's a sickness.

Third, some indie developers are lazy. They know how to do one thing, and they don't want to have to learn something new. Some of the public complaining seems to fit into that category.

You are being dramatic. It was just a request to stay classy. No demanding. I even said please lol.

[CrystalWizard]

I've cut PhoenixVerb and R2 loose. If they're never going to be M1 native, that's the end of the line for them with me. I'm also done with iZotope for good because of what they did to Exponential Audio. There's just too many developers out there to waste your time and money on shitty unethical ones.

I guess you didn't read or glossed over my previous post where i commented that it's the bean counters not the developers? Izotope, perfect example, taken over by vulture capitalists. You think the devs and engineers are happy with these decisions? You think they are suddenly working less hours because the c-suites and the manglement don't give a crap what the customers want. Not likely.

[Ploki]

x86 has been around for five decades. M1 has been around one year. Many devs have dependencies, libraries or packages that aren't translated to M1 yet. Liquidsonics for example were held back by iLok. Tech is not only about new stuff, you also need the old stuff.

Sure, i'm aware about iLok Fusion.

But here's another example: Retina / HiDPI GUI. First retina Mac was out in 2012. NI still isn't retina/hidpi ready, it still renders as non-retina. You can't even buy macs without hi res displays anymore.
Is 10-years a short period?

Edit:
FapFilter's example one post down is much better

[FapFilter]

Why were you so quick to adopt the M1 architecture? That's what you get for so desperately wanting to be there first and being an early adopter of new technology.

I’m repeating myself but dev kits were available to devs that wanted them in spring 2020, and first M1 came out well over a year ago.

It’s tech world, more than one year and a half isn’t “quick”, it’s already dated.

x86 has been around for five decades. M1 has been around one year. Many devs have dependencies, libraries or packages that aren't translated to M1 yet. Liquidsonics for example were held back by iLok. Tech is not only about new stuff, you also need the old stuff.

Small correction:
X86 CPUs have been around since 1978 = 44 years by the end of this year
ARM CPUs since 1985 = 37 years by the end of this year

Of course i don't know how much backwards compatibility ARM carries back until the very earliest versions, but M1 runs a lot of old iOS software flawlessly, so my guess is that “M1“ technology has been known for at least 10 years now, if not more. Maybe a lot more.
It may of course be that some developers never cared about that architecture, or deemed it “not worthy for professional audio use cases“, but it's not that in all of a sudden some alien space ship technology was thrown at them no man has ever heard of before.

[Aleksey Vaneev]

It's not about ARM architecture's timespan of existence, it's about absense of general user request of desktop ARM experience during that timespan. Microsoft was among the first to go that route (Windows for ARM), but their solution wasn't successful enough, mainly because most desktop ARM processors were quite poor.

[chk071]

I guess you didn't read or glossed over my previous post where i commented that it's the bean counters not the developers? Izotope, perfect example, taken over by vulture capitalists.

I always shudder when I read stuff like that. Primarily because of the political message (seems to be totally normal these days for a scaring amount of people to hate on the "capitalist" system), secondarily because of the fact that even the biggest companies in the business are just as big as 4 or 5, maybe even 10 of the biggest companies in my 20.000 souls one-horse town. There is no "big" in this industry, and, most if not all of the companies in the business have been founded by musicians.

The industry's clients really know nothing about "big". Or about having to compete on a small, but competitive market, and making sure that you can exist long term.

[v1o]

X86 CPUs have been around since 1978 = 44 years by the end of this year
ARM CPUs since 1985 = 37 years by the end of this year

Read the reply by Aleksey from Voxengo, an actual developer with lots of plugins to port to M1.

Also x86 has been around for 5 decades now by my count:
1980s = 1st decade
1990s = 2nd decade
2000s = 3rd decade
2010s = 4th decade
2020s = 5th decade

[chk071]

X86 CPUs have been around since 1978 = 44 years by the end of this year
ARM CPUs since 1985 = 37 years by the end of this year

Let's stay fair though. ARM for home computers has only become a thing very, very recently. And, actually, only on Apple computers. It's practically non-existant on Windows machines. Probably has a market share of 1-2% on Windows, if even.

[Ploki]

I guess you didn't read or glossed over my previous post where i commented that it's the bean counters not the developers? Izotope, perfect example, taken over by vulture capitalists.

I always shudder when I read stuff like that. Primarily because of the political message (seems to be totally normal these days for a scaring amount of people to hate on the "capitalist" system)

Idk, i find that refreshing.

[FapFilter]

X86 CPUs have been around since 1978 = 44 years by the end of this year
ARM CPUs since 1985 = 37 years by the end of this year

Let's stay fair though. ARM for home computers has only become a thing very, very recently. And, actually, only on Apple computers. It's practically non-existant on Windows machines. Probably has a market share of 1-2% on Windows, if even.

True, but it‘s not that they couldn‘t have familiarized themself before if they had wanted to.
Console makers and game developers do the same when a new console generation is in development: they try to familiarize thenself with as much as possible similiar / predesceding hardware to the announced or assumed final specs as possible even if no final hardware is ready yet

Again: it‘s not that everyone should have done this, but they easily could have if they had enough interest

[Super Piano Hater 64]

I guess you didn't read or glossed over my previous post where i commented that it's the bean counters not the developers? Izotope, perfect example, taken over by vulture capitalists.

I always shudder when I read stuff like that. Primarily because of the political message (seems to be totally normal these days for a scaring amount of people to hate on the "capitalist" system), secondarily because of the fact that even the biggest companies in the business are just as big as 4 or 5, maybe even 10 of the biggest companies in my 20.000 souls one-horse town. There is no "big" in this industry, and, most if not all of the companies in the business have been founded by musicians.

The industry's clients really know nothing about "big". Or about having to compete on a small, but competitive market, and making sure that you can exist long term.

Would it bother you less to hear them described as (for example) "parasitic investors?" The other nickname is a parody of "venture capitalist," where "capitalist" means "investor." VCs like to call themselves VCs. It's okay to make fun of them sometimes. Furthermore, keep in mind that although the system of capitalism is named after the act of capitalism, the capitalists (investors) are not personally in charge of the entire thing. As such, when they behave badly, it's possible to criticize their behavior without erecting statues of Lenin.

Regarding size: It's really a matter of market share relative to the size of the market, and the quality of leverage afforded to an established company by its uncontested, monopoly-like position. Said leverage is invariably a bad thing for the health of the company and the health of the market. Certain companies are milking their domination of the market (which causes all kinds of problems down the line) and also merging together to consolidate their dominance (which causes new problems and exacerbates all the other ones). They will throw their weight around aggressively until they face either legal consequences (antitrust action) or run face-first into a market shift that pulls the financial rug out from under them. Or they'll just suddenly implode under the weight of their own debt (which they only took on to chase further market dominance). Anyway, this sick attitude can be avoided by much bigger companies if they're in a more competitive market. As consumers, we might think it's more competitive than it "actually" is (in the private reality of a balance sheet). The people with the keenest nose for that odor are professional investors. When they show up and start changing everything, you can safely assume you're looking at a corporate zombie, and it's just a matter of time before it turns into a regular corpse.

[chk071]

X86 CPUs have been around since 1978 = 44 years by the end of this year
ARM CPUs since 1985 = 37 years by the end of this year

Let's stay fair though. ARM for home computers has only become a thing very, very recently. And, actually, only on Apple computers. It's practically non-existant on Windows machines. Probably has a market share of 1-2% on Windows, if even.

True, but it‘s not that they couldn‘t have familiarized themself before if they had wanted to.
Console makers and game developers do the same when a new console generation is in development: they try to familiarize thenself with as much as possible similiar / predesceding hardware to the announced or assumed final specs as possible even if no final hardware is ready yet

Again: it‘s not that everyone should have done this, but they easily could have if they had enough interest

I'm pretty sure that any developer gets a prety early sneak peek into the new architecture. Nonetheless it can vary from something to learn, and implement to a lot of work, depending on how you made your plugin.

@Super Piano Hater: I don't want to do a political discourse here, that's mainly the reason why I don't know why on earth the "rebels" always start with this "vulture capitalism" crap. Especially as they're usually a big part of it, with their consumer behavior. I can only recommend to point your finger at your mirror image, instead of blaming others for what they create because of you. Frankly, a lot of the depitciton here bears any real conditions anyway.