Of course. I didn‘t try to state otherwise, just that developers don‘t necessarily have to be hit out of the blue. I‘m also actually quite sure that most developers were already pretty aware that some of their (or licensenced) code might not work beforehand which wouldn‘t be easy fixes at allI'm pretty sure that any developer gets a prety early sneak peek into the new architecture. Nonetheless it can vary from something to learn, and implement to a lot of work, depending on how you made your plugin.
Lazy developers exposed by Apple M1 transition (lack of native updates)
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- KVRAF
- 1525 posts since 29 Oct, 2015 from Jupiter 8
The GAS is always greener on the other side!
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- KVRAF
- 35439 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany
I take a look into coding every now and then, and, frankly, I'm stunned that people take that amount of work and learning at all. Especially as things move so lightning fast these days. Well, not just learning the programming languages, but also gathering the knowledge about DSP from god knows where (I wouldn't know where to start, TBH).
Just saying that most people surely underestimate what a massive task all this is. They put 150 € on the counter, and then ask "Where's my M1 native plugin version" after half a year of owning it, and call the devs lazy, if they don't provide it ASAP.
Anyway, I guess you can feel entitled as a customer to a certain degree, but, calling people lazy and stuff just won't do.
Just saying that most people surely underestimate what a massive task all this is. They put 150 € on the counter, and then ask "Where's my M1 native plugin version" after half a year of owning it, and call the devs lazy, if they don't provide it ASAP.
Anyway, I guess you can feel entitled as a customer to a certain degree, but, calling people lazy and stuff just won't do.
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Super Piano Hater 64 Super Piano Hater 64 https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=491312
- KVRist
- 376 posts since 24 Jan, 2021
My actual point was that people who use that nickname for VCs typically do not intend it as a political statement.
If you have such powerful superstitions about the C word that you can't bear to see it used in a sentence without thinking of the other C word, maybe you're the one who needs to spend some time with a mirror.
Anyway. Programming. You all might enjoy this classic:
https://www.stilldrinking.com/programming-sucks
I hate signatures too.
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- KVRist
- 234 posts since 21 Jul, 2016
I'm a dev of non-audio software by trade .
It's worth remembering that many programs that solve real-world problems are also really ugly on the inside. They start out simple and elegant but soon end up too complicated for anybody to hold the whole thing in their head at once.
As a result, changes that seem simple can actually be very complicated and time-consuming (and conversely changes that seem difficult can turn out to be very simple). Without having spent a good amount of time with the code it's difficult to estimate.
Also, keep in mind that changing processor architecture is not a trivial change for a lot of audio software. Since plugins tend to have a loop that runs thousands of times a second, devs tend to try to optimise as much as possible. Quite a lot of audio software has portions where the devs overrule the compiler (that converts the text of the source code to machine language) and actually program directly in machine instructions themselves (which let you do things like deal with several voices of a synth in one instruction etc, so it's worth it). When you suddenly start having to deal with a different type of processor these instructions are now different (and there's no guarantee that the instructions for one processor will have an identical instruction for the other, plus you also have to make sure it still sounds the same..). It's not trivial.
It's worth remembering that many programs that solve real-world problems are also really ugly on the inside. They start out simple and elegant but soon end up too complicated for anybody to hold the whole thing in their head at once.
As a result, changes that seem simple can actually be very complicated and time-consuming (and conversely changes that seem difficult can turn out to be very simple). Without having spent a good amount of time with the code it's difficult to estimate.
Also, keep in mind that changing processor architecture is not a trivial change for a lot of audio software. Since plugins tend to have a loop that runs thousands of times a second, devs tend to try to optimise as much as possible. Quite a lot of audio software has portions where the devs overrule the compiler (that converts the text of the source code to machine language) and actually program directly in machine instructions themselves (which let you do things like deal with several voices of a synth in one instruction etc, so it's worth it). When you suddenly start having to deal with a different type of processor these instructions are now different (and there's no guarantee that the instructions for one processor will have an identical instruction for the other, plus you also have to make sure it still sounds the same..). It's not trivial.
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- KVRAF
- 35439 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany
I don't think so.Super Piano Hater 64 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:07 pm If you have such powerful superstitions about the C word that you can't bear to see it used in a sentence without thinking of the other C word, maybe you're the one who needs to spend some time with a mirror.
And these are no superstitions. It's just the typical terminology. Looks like people will never learn from the past.
- KVRAF
- 5512 posts since 2 Sep, 2019
{ pssst. Voxengo }
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP
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- KVRAF
- 6468 posts since 17 Dec, 2009
chk071 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:16 pm @Super Piano Hater: I don't want to do a political discourse here, that's mainly the reason why I don't know why on earth the "rebels" always start with this "vulture capitalism" crap. Especially as they're usually a big part of it, with their consumer behavior. I can only recommend to point your finger at your mirror image, instead of blaming others for what they create because of you. Frankly, a lot of the depitciton here bears any real conditions anyway.
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- KVRAF
- 6468 posts since 17 Dec, 2009
let's be super fair tho, apple has been using RISC (PowerPC) for about the same time as X86. (1990-2006 - 16 years) And Alexey actually made PowerPC plugins up until 2011.
x86/CISC was 2006-2020 - 14 years.
And lets also be more fair, apple has been doing their own chips since iphone 4 (2010) so the M1 is more like 14th gen chip than 1st gen or "bleeding edge".
First gen iphone was out in 2007, so technically apple has been using RISC from 1990 to 2020s, 4 decades!
And iPads are, for all intents and purposes a "personal computer".
Now if we're done being obtuse here, can we stop pretending that compiling for 1980s DOS-based systems has anything to do with developing in 2020s?
- KVRAF
- 4021 posts since 7 Sep, 2002
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- KVRAF
- 6468 posts since 17 Dec, 2009
Yeah i assumed it is, but what libraries from 1980s x86 apply to 2020s tho?Aleksey Vaneev wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:36 am "RISC" is too broad, so does not apply here (you can't use AltiVec nor pre-built PowerPC libraries on ARM).
- KVRAF
- 4021 posts since 7 Sep, 2002
I'm not getting this logic. x86 then x86-64, SSE then AVX, was a progressive adoption, no hurries as Windows supported most 32-bit and even 16-bit applications. Apple's desktop ARM64 is a disruptive change to most extablished production workflows. As was change from PowerPC to x86 (AltiVec to SSE, big-endian to little-endian, which at the time I think was a real head-ache for developers without cross-platform codebase).Ploki wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:37 amYeah i assumed it is, but what libraries from 1980s x86 apply to 2020s tho?Aleksey Vaneev wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:36 am "RISC" is too broad, so does not apply here (you can't use AltiVec nor pre-built PowerPC libraries on ARM).
- KVRAF
- 4021 posts since 7 Sep, 2002
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- KVRAF
- 6468 posts since 17 Dec, 2009
i wish that was ported to macAleksey Vaneev wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:47 am Windows 10 still runs my 32-bit Impulse Modeler, that's 16! years after its latest release. And it sells a bit as well still.
in any case, thanks for the insight in previous post
- KVRAF
- 4021 posts since 7 Sep, 2002
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- KVRAF
- 3368 posts since 2 Oct, 2004
Oops. That was a typo!jamcat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:38 am{ pssst. Voxengo }
Orion Platinum, Muzys 2