Frustration with slow development of Ableton Live

[Spencer Maddox]

No need for more features here. Bought Live 11 one year ago, but I still use Live 10. For me personally it's the better choice.

I also use Reaktor, Softube Modular and VCV Rack in combination with Live, I really can't think of more possibilities.

So you own live 11 but choose to use live 10?
Any reason why it’s the better choice? As someone who is still on 10 and never went up to 11, I’m genuinely curious.

[Rastkovic]

No need for more features here. Bought Live 11 one year ago, but I still use Live 10. For me personally it's the better choice.

I also use Reaktor, Softube Modular and VCV Rack in combination with Live, I really can't think of more possibilities.

So you own live 11 but choose to use live 10?
Any reason why it’s the better choice? As someone who is still on 10 and never went up to 11, I’m genuinely curious.

I (still) not like the new Clip View. They improved it in the 11.1 version, but I still prefer the old view. I don't really understand why they add this scale option for example, it was already possible to use a specific selection of notes in the clip view when needed and there is also the Scale midi FX.

I have no real advantage with Live 11, the improvements are not relevant for me. The updated devices and rack features would be nice, but I can also live without them. I would be fine with it, if Live 10 becomes Ableton Live Classic and getting maintenance updates forever. I would pay for it....

[antic604]

I think they really should have a way of magnifying or resizing their own plugins just like many 3rd party plugins nowadays do. And . for gods sake , why do I need a 3rd party audio editor --- Ableton should implement destructive editing of audio inside the clips........but I have managed to live with that for a decade.....for me I can't see me moving to another DAW

I'd find this completely useless (for me, wouldn't mind if it was implemented for those that want it).

The whole point of device chain as it's being displayed in Live or Bitwig is quick worlflow especially for automating stuff, where you move between sequencer and device - you touch a parameter, it instantly becomes available for editing of automation. Click another knob -> edit the automation. An repeat. That's something that is not immediately available in most DAWs, where you either have to actually record it to see the automation (Cubase, Reaper), find and add the automation lane from some convoluted menu (Cubase, Reaper), create a new automation clip (FL, Reason) or drag it to a track (Studio One). Sure, it's just few more clicks but when inspiration strikes every second counts and every distraction can lead to compromising the end result. Obviously that might not be relevant for every type of music and/or every setup.

Check this latest video from Ableton for reference:

Code: Select all

https://youtu.be/IT5Th7Atgc0?t=456

Also, considering that Live and especially Bitwig have container devices like Racks, Layers, Selectors, XY Containers, Splitters, etc. a clear - but compact! - visualisation of devices order, especially when multiple parallel branches are present is very important. I'm not saying Live's or Bitwig's approach is perfect, because FL's Patcher or S1's Extended FX Chains offer a compelling alternative in a form of visual trees / graphs; but both require separate floating windows for that, whereas Live and Bitwig try to avoid that for the benefit of single-screen / laptop workflow.

[antic604]

...I don't really understand why they add this scale option for example, it was already possible to use a specific selection of notes in the clip view when needed...

You mean moving notes of the key & scale outside of the clip and snapping the notes? That was ridiculously bad workaround. It wasn't filering out "wrong" notes input via MIDI Controller (you could use MIDI FX devices for that, but that's doubling the work). Also it wasn't communicating with Push, to ensure 1:1 correspondence.

Lastly, I hope that it's a 1st step into the direction of adding a chord track, which would be followed by MIDI and audio like it does in S1, where you can basically create MIDI clips and record audio in one key & scale, loop them and then build a chord progression - even changing that key & scale along the way - using the chord track.

[ozinga]

11.1 is out

[Rastkovic]

...I don't really understand why they add this scale option for example, it was already possible to use a specific selection of notes in the clip view when needed...

You mean moving notes of the key & scale outside of the clip and snapping the notes? That was ridiculously bad workaround. It wasn't filering out "wrong" notes input via MIDI Controller (you could use MIDI FX devices for that, but that's doubling the work). Also it wasn't communicating with Push, to ensure 1:1 correspondence.

You could also play a-minor, c-major, d-dorian, etc. and use the pitch midi FX to transpose....

[EnochLight]

Bit of a Rant:

I've been using Live since Version 4 and since I'm hitting 40 soon. I realize how frustrated I am at the slow speed that Ableton is introducing new features, because it feels like I might have one leg in the grave before any substantial new features are arriving.

LMAO!!!! Reason Studios sends their regards.

[docbot]

Another thing so obvious and not possible. Why is there no short cut to switch tracks when working in the note editor? If you click with your mouse on the track header of another track, the note editor automatically changes to the clip in that track on the same scene, how is this not a shortcut?

But hats off to whoever is in charge of developing the devices in LIVE. The new shifter and all the new devices from 11 are really good, experimental,but very useable!

[Fraggle]

I think they really should have a way of magnifying or resizing their own plugins just like many 3rd party plugins nowadays do. And . for gods sake , why do I need a 3rd party audio editor --- Ableton should implement destructive editing of audio inside the clips........but I have managed to live with that for a decade.....for me I can't see me moving to another DAW

I'd find this completely useless (for me, wouldn't mind if it was implemented for those that want it).

The whole point of device chain as it's being displayed in Live or Bitwig is quick worlflow especially for automating stuff, where you move between sequencer and device - you touch a parameter, it instantly becomes available for editing of automation. Click another knob -> edit the automation. An repeat. That's something that is not immediately available in most DAWs, where you either have to actually record it to see the automation (Cubase, Reaper), find and add the automation lane from some convoluted menu (Cubase, Reaper), create a new automation clip (FL, Reason) or drag it to a track (Studio One). Sure, it's just few more clicks but when inspiration strikes every second counts and every distraction can lead to compromising the end result. Obviously that might not be relevant for every type of music and/or every setup.

Check this latest video from Ableton for reference:

Code: Select all

https://youtu.be/IT5Th7Atgc0?t=456

Also, considering that Live and especially Bitwig have container devices like Racks, Layers, Selectors, XY Containers, Splitters, etc. a clear - but compact! - visualisation of devices order, especially when multiple parallel branches are present is very important. I'm not saying Live's or Bitwig's approach is perfect, because FL's Patcher or S1's Extended FX Chains offer a compelling alternative in a form of visual trees / graphs; but both require separate floating windows for that, whereas Live and Bitwig try to avoid that for the benefit of single-screen / laptop workflow.

Always I believe the user should have CHOICE - so people like yourself can continue to work the way you describe and people like me can have our pop-out resizable UI for Ableton devices. It would be as ridiculous to force everyone to use pop out UIs for Ableton devices as it currently is to force us all to use them only in the bottom 25% of the screen.

The same CHOICE is relevant for my other idea. Basically implement the ability to split, reverse, and crop clips in the SESSION view. Currently you can only do this in arrangement view. For people who work mainly in session view you wouldn't have to flip back n forth when you want to do audio editing.

[rod_zero]

I think they really should have a way of magnifying or resizing their own plugins just like many 3rd party plugins nowadays do. And . for gods sake , why do I need a 3rd party audio editor --- Ableton should implement destructive editing of audio inside the clips........but I have managed to live with that for a decade.....for me I can't see me moving to another DAW

I'd find this completely useless (for me, wouldn't mind if it was implemented for those that want it).

The whole point of device chain as it's being displayed in Live or Bitwig is quick worlflow especially for automating stuff, where you move between sequencer and device - you touch a parameter, it instantly becomes available for editing of automation. Click another knob -> edit the automation. An repeat. That's something that is not immediately available in most DAWs, where you either have to actually record it to see the automation (Cubase, Reaper), find and add the automation lane from some convoluted menu (Cubase, Reaper), create a new automation clip (FL, Reason) or drag it to a track (Studio One). Sure, it's just few more clicks but when inspiration strikes every second counts and every distraction can lead to compromising the end result. Obviously that might not be relevant for every type of music and/or every setup.

Check this latest video from Ableton for reference:

Code: Select all

https://youtu.be/IT5Th7Atgc0?t=456

Also, considering that Live and especially Bitwig have container devices like Racks, Layers, Selectors, XY Containers, Splitters, etc. a clear - but compact! - visualisation of devices order, especially when multiple parallel branches are present is very important. I'm not saying Live's or Bitwig's approach is perfect, because FL's Patcher or S1's Extended FX Chains offer a compelling alternative in a form of visual trees / graphs; but both require separate floating windows for that, whereas Live and Bitwig try to avoid that for the benefit of single-screen / laptop workflow.

Always I believe the user should have CHOICE - so people like yourself can continue to work the way you describe and people like me can have our pop-out resizable UI for Ableton devices. It would be as ridiculous to force everyone to use pop out UIs for Ableton devices as it currently is to force us all to use them only in the bottom 25% of the screen.

The same CHOICE is relevant for my other idea. Basically implement the ability to split, reverse, and crop clips in the SESSION view. Currently you can only do this in arrangement view. For people who work mainly in session view you wouldn't have to flip back n forth when you want to do audio editing.

Your request goes totally against Live UI design principles, the first thing the UI is trying to do is avoiding Pop up windows. Requests at least have to be reasonable not totally out of place given the DAW design.

[EnochLight]

I think they really should have a way of magnifying or resizing their own plugins just like many 3rd party plugins nowadays do. And . for gods sake , why do I need a 3rd party audio editor --- Ableton should implement destructive editing of audio inside the clips........but I have managed to live with that for a decade.....for me I can't see me moving to another DAW

I'd find this completely useless (for me, wouldn't mind if it was implemented for those that want it).

The whole point of device chain as it's being displayed in Live or Bitwig is quick worlflow especially for automating stuff, where you move between sequencer and device - you touch a parameter, it instantly becomes available for editing of automation. Click another knob -> edit the automation. An repeat. That's something that is not immediately available in most DAWs, where you either have to actually record it to see the automation (Cubase, Reaper), find and add the automation lane from some convoluted menu (Cubase, Reaper), create a new automation clip (FL, Reason) or drag it to a track (Studio One). Sure, it's just few more clicks but when inspiration strikes every second counts and every distraction can lead to compromising the end result. Obviously that might not be relevant for every type of music and/or every setup.

Check this latest video from Ableton for reference:

Code: Select all

https://youtu.be/IT5Th7Atgc0?t=456

Also, considering that Live and especially Bitwig have container devices like Racks, Layers, Selectors, XY Containers, Splitters, etc. a clear - but compact! - visualisation of devices order, especially when multiple parallel branches are present is very important. I'm not saying Live's or Bitwig's approach is perfect, because FL's Patcher or S1's Extended FX Chains offer a compelling alternative in a form of visual trees / graphs; but both require separate floating windows for that, whereas Live and Bitwig try to avoid that for the benefit of single-screen / laptop workflow.

Always I believe the user should have CHOICE - so people like yourself can continue to work the way you describe and people like me can have our pop-out resizable UI for Ableton devices. It would be as ridiculous to force everyone to use pop out UIs for Ableton devices as it currently is to force us all to use them only in the bottom 25% of the screen.

The same CHOICE is relevant for my other idea. Basically implement the ability to split, reverse, and crop clips in the SESSION view. Currently you can only do this in arrangement view. For people who work mainly in session view you wouldn't have to flip back n forth when you want to do audio editing.

We can tell you’re serious by your use of capital letters.

[antic604]

Always I believe the user should have CHOICE - so people like yourself can continue to work the way you describe and people like me can have our pop-out resizable UI for Ableton devices. It would be as ridiculous to force everyone to use pop out UIs for Ableton devices as it currently is to force us all to use them only in the bottom 25% of the screen.

That's a werid way of framing it. Ableton doesn't force anything on you. It's not like they ever changed this principle. It was always their goal to have as much as possible on screen withouth pop-up windows obscuring other elements and that it all should work on a laptop, during a live performance. You could choose a different DAW, just like I didn't make S1 my main because of its design principles not aligning with my needs, even though it's a fantastic DAW otherwise.

If anything, it's you who's forcing Ableton to change their idea what Live should be.

The same CHOICE is relevant for my other idea. Basically implement the ability to split, reverse, and crop clips in the SESSION view. Currently you can only do this in arrangement view. For people who work mainly in session view you wouldn't have to flip back n forth when you want to do audio editing.

You really should try Bitwig. It does all of that + it has both session and arranger on the same screen.

Also it's device panel is a bit taller at the same zoom level, device controls are bigger and more of the native devices have pop-up windows.

[BONES]

I've been using Live since Version 4 and since I'm hitting 40 soon. I realize how frustrated I am at the slow speed that Ableton is introducing new features, because it feels like I might have one leg in the grave before any substantial new features are arriving.

Are you f**king kidding me? It's at Version 11 and you probably only use about 10% of the features it currently has, why would you care if it never gets updated again?

Sure Live 11 was a great update, but most of the features should have been here a long time ago and people have told Ableton so considently for years and considering how incredibly successfull Ableton is, I really don't understand why it takes them this incredibly long to develope and introduce new features.

You've answered your own question - Ableton is incredibly successful, clearly they know much better than you what they are doing. Why you would question their wisdom is beyond my ken.

I could think of a hundred things that would make Ableton more fun and easier to use (and not just more complicated) and it's hard to imagine that the devs at Ableton don't have those same ideas. So I am wondering if anybody can explain to me, why it just isn't the case that they're introduced?

Because not everyone will think your "good" ideas are actually good. Every new thing will piss one section or other of your user base off, guaranteed.

With all the technological advances all around happening,

Like what? I can't think of anything in the last 20 years that isn't just an incremental improvement on things that have been around for ages.

it really feels like the DAW sector in general should also step up it's game in a serious way. There is so much processing power to be harnessed with GPUs and now even AI acceloration build into chips, I just want to see developers use all this stuff.

I don't, I want to make music. I am perfectly happy with every single aspect of all the tools I use. If nothing ever got updated or upgraded ever again, it wouldn't worry me in the slightest. I could keep making new music for 100 years with the tools I have now and I still wouldn't have done much more than scratch the surface of what's possible.

Live 11.1 public beta started 28 Sept 2021, it is 15 Jan 2022 as of this post, so it is like 3 1/2 months old.

The last DUNE beta went for twice that long and it's just a synth and it was only a 0.5 update. S yeah, it's hardly the end of the world.

Ableton often says they want to minimise change to keep the workflow easy & familiar. That's their USP.

Not necessarily something I would like to hear from a DAW developer...

OTOH, it is EXACTLY what I want to hear. Stop f**king annoying me with new f**king versions that give me nothing I need and let me get on with my f**king work!

Always I believe the user should have CHOICE - so people like yourself can continue to work the way you describe and people like me can have our pop-out resizable UI for Ableton devices.

Right, because that wouldn't bloat the code base and slow everything down, would it?

The same CHOICE is relevant for my other idea. Basically implement the ability to split, reverse, and crop clips in the SESSION view. Currently you can only do this in arrangement view. For people who work mainly in session view you wouldn't have to flip back n forth when you want to do audio editing.

I'm not a Live user but even I can see why it's the way it is - Session view is for live performance, not for studio work. Adding a million features to it would very likely compromise its real-time performance, so they keep Session view light, only including features appropriate for live performance, and put all the heavy stuff into the Arrange view.

[antic604]

I'm not a Live user but even I can see why it's the way it is - Session view is for live performance, not for studio work. Adding a million features to it would very likely compromise its real-time performance, so they keep Session view light, only including features appropriate for live performance, and put all the heavy stuff into the Arrange view.

Double click on session/launcher audio clip in Live and Bitwig and compare what you can do with the contents. Bitwig goes way further and that doesn't compromise it's ability to be used for life performance in any way.

This one's an invalid argument. I agree with everything else, though

[BONES]

And you have used it for live performance how many times?