Is talent born or created with hard work and practice

[matrixo9]

https://www.dawn.com/news/599040/talent ... not%20born.

[Erisian]

I often get frustrated when people say for example, "I can't draw. It's ok for you, you are talented." I loved drawing when I was a child and that is why I did a lot of it, and that is why I got good, because I developed skills by training myself, but I wasn't born with the ability to draw. Maybe I was born with a gene-structure that gave me a mindset conducive to creativity but I don't think genes are so specific that anybody can say I was born with a talent. Some people do seem to have a special knack for certain things but I think even that is developed through experience and imagination, either directly or indirectly.

[matrixo9]

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[matrixo9]

I often get frustrated when people say for example, "I can't draw. It's ok for you, you are talented." I loved drawing when I was a child and that is why I did a lot of it, and that is why I got good, because I developed skills by training myself, but I wasn't born with the ability to draw. Maybe I was born with a gene-structure that gave me a mindset conducive to creativity but I don't think genes are so specific that anybody can say I was born with a talent. Some people do seem to have a special knack for certain things but I think even that is developed through experience and imagination, either directly or indirectly.

I agree with you

[BertKoor]

@Matrix, you asked the question but it seems from your posts that you're only looking for confirmation of your own beliefs. There ain't no consensus on this topic.

Especially when it concerns musicality, basic intelligence, mathematics, I'm convinced that some people just don't have it and some others just do. There must have been studies performed on the subject, but I'm no good in finding academic papers.

[Double Tap]

Talent without hard work on skills will only get you so far. You can have an ability to do something more naturally than someone else, but if you simply rely on that ability you probably won’t improve to as high a level, if that person with less natural ability does the work. Otoh, people who do have that natural ability will become the best. So talent must exist - how else can we explain the brilliance of Messi, Einstein, Beethoven, Shakespeare, Dostoevsky or Bradman?

Why it exists is a different matter though. Was Bradman’s talent honed by hitting a golf ball against the wall with a stump, or was it created because he did that? Was Mozart brilliant because he was exposed to music and playing from such a young age, or did he start young because he was so obviously good at it?

This is a bit dated but it’s a good starting point for some of the research, and the 10,000 hour theory
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/coll ... -hard-work

Beethoven was pushed by his dad very hard
Probably too hard or he wouldn't have been that player
This is what I think , Messi may have the right physique or mindset , Beethoven may have had success driven in him he may have good long fingers and arms , the definition of talent for me is not a born thing , cercumstances and surroundings play a part , like you say Messi ok I'll say Ronaldo , for me the best player ever , there are players who have the same skills as him in the park on a Saturday morning same ball control , passing , dribbling ability , what sets him apart from them I'll tell you , ( mentality ) which must have been learned by people encouraging him to be the best , my son will never be Ronaldo , but in less than three years he has become as good and better than some kids playing since they were 6 , he doesn't have natural talent he was over weight and couldn't do a kick up and now he is playing with kids dropped by millwall and Charlton If he keeps it up who knows what can happen , it wasn't natural born , same as it wasn't in any of these guys they just have done it so long it's second nature to them , what can be passed on is a strong mentally , I don't have the strongest and am somewhat of a failure and I don't want that for my kids to be the dad my dad wasn't so I push them ( not too hard trust me ) encourage them to be the best they can be , probably not Messi or Beethoven but they don't have to be

Yeah, that's exactly it - being the best isn't always a good thing for a kid. Look at Tiger Woods. But when you look at Messi or Ronaldo against a Peter Crouch, you can see that Crouch was an excellent player, but something about him meant that he was never going to be as good as those two - his physique, maybe his personality or mindset, like you say.

So there must be something innate that you can't ever train into someone. But at the same time, your son demonstrates that it's not just about talent - hard work can get you a very long way. Nobody who plays in top flight football is bad player, probably not even George Weah's cousin.

[matrixo9]

I believe some folks can accomplish stuff with much less effort than others, I don't know if I would call that talent.

Then what would you call it? My bandmate is a much more talented musician that I will ever be, yet he doesn't put any more effort into it than I do. I'm too uncoordinated to ever be able to be a good musician, it wouldn't matter how much time and effort I put in. I'm sure if I did the 10,000 hours thing I could become a competent musician but I'd never actually be good, because good requires talent I simply don't possess.

I'm probably a better singer than he is, though, and my singing ability is mostly innate talent because it's not something I have ever worked at. It's just something I can do because I have a "good voice" (whatever that means).

So yes, talent is rooted in genetic advantage. It is not something you can create out of thin air, you have to be born with the correct genetic advantages and then you have to put in the hard work to fully realise that talent.

Sport is an excellent place to look for talent. Think of the top tennis players - those people have talent and it wouldn't matter how many hours of practice someone else put into being the best tennis player they can be, it's the players with talent who will rise to the top. I'm sure that there are players with no talent who have worked hard enough to earn a living on the circuit, but they'll never crack the Top 20.

You answered your own question why bones
In your reply there lacks your self confidence in ever believing you can be as good, and comparing yourself to others ability , this is what is holding you back and me I'm afraid tbh , and because you aren't, think u can't , your telling yourself he has been blessed , I can sing nicely I started whe I was seven but if I don't practise for a while I'm kinda back at beginning stage again ish , but yes my TONE Is there but that has to do with the music you heard as a kid and sung and the way you talk that has SHAPED That over the years , I have kind of cockney South London accept I'm pretty sure if I was brought up in Japan my tone would be different, the problem in telling kids that this Talent thing is just born , is they will never try more than a certain amount , " nah I'm giving up halfway up this rope this guy at the top just has more talent than me , now if we're talking about being faster having longer fingers sure sure someone could be better than you for that but does that mean u can't get there with harder work , this attitude is what holds us back , and also with the people that try for years and never get anywhere , maybe that is just ( they could not be as good as they think they are) there is no market for what thy are selling , ( the have a bad attitude ) songwriting or singing is not great , a million reasons I'm sure there's way more people with better guitar skills and poetry skills that a lot of the famous people up there , but to have people buy your book it can't just be a very intelligent book with all the skills , people have to like It , sorry Mr bones but there it is my ol friend

[matrixo9]

@Matrix, you asked the question but it seems from your posts that you're only looking for confirmation of your own beliefs. There ain't no consensus on this topic.

Especially when it concerns musicality, basic intelligence, mathematics, I'm convinced that some people just don't have it and some others just do. There must have been studies performed on the subject, but I'm no good in finding academic papers.

No I have my beliefs
But I'm asking you and arguing the facts /non facts , isn't that what a debate is ?

[matrixo9]

Talent without hard work on skills will only get you so far. You can have an ability to do something more naturally than someone else, but if you simply rely on that ability you probably won’t improve to as high a level, if that person with less natural ability does the work. Otoh, people who do have that natural ability will become the best. So talent must exist - how else can we explain the brilliance of Messi, Einstein, Beethoven, Shakespeare, Dostoevsky or Bradman?

Why it exists is a different matter though. Was Bradman’s talent honed by hitting a golf ball against the wall with a stump, or was it created because he did that? Was Mozart brilliant because he was exposed to music and playing from such a young age, or did he start young because he was so obviously good at it?

This is a bit dated but it’s a good starting point for some of the research, and the 10,000 hour theory
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/coll ... -hard-work

Beethoven was pushed by his dad very hard
Probably too hard or he wouldn't have been that player
This is what I think , Messi may have the right physique or mindset , Beethoven may have had success driven in him he may have good long fingers and arms , the definition of talent for me is not a born thing , cercumstances and surroundings play a part , like you say Messi ok I'll say Ronaldo , for me the best player ever , there are players who have the same skills as him in the park on a Saturday morning same ball control , passing , dribbling ability , what sets him apart from them I'll tell you , ( mentality ) which must have been learned by people encouraging him to be the best , my son will never be Ronaldo , but in less than three years he has become as good and better than some kids playing since they were 6 , he doesn't have natural talent he was over weight and couldn't do a kick up and now he is playing with kids dropped by millwall and Charlton If he keeps it up who knows what can happen , it wasn't natural born , same as it wasn't in any of these guys they just have done it so long it's second nature to them , what can be passed on is a strong mentally , I don't have the strongest and am somewhat of a failure and I don't want that for my kids to be the dad my dad wasn't so I push them ( not too hard trust me ) encourage them to be the best they can be , probably not Messi or Beethoven but they don't have to be

Yeah, that's exactly it - being the best isn't always a good thing for a kid. Look at Tiger Woods. But when you look at Messi or Ronaldo against a Peter Crouch, you can see that Crouch was an excellent player, but something about him meant that he was never going to be as good as those two - his physique, maybe his personality or mindset, like you say.

So there must be something innate that you can't ever train into someone. But at the same time, your son demonstrates that it's not just about talent - hard work can get you a very long way. Nobody who plays in top flight football is bad player, probably not even George Weah's cousin.

Not even top flight , I would argue that some non league players are just as good but don't try as hard with the fitness and regimes that you need to be a top athlete , I often hear parents say nah he will never make it my boy but I don't tell him that , but he will be down the pub with his mates in a couple of years , he needs to get his GCSEs only one in a million make It , now if you tell the kid that he will believe that and stop , become like his dad because his dad never believed his son could ever get there because he expects that a three year old will scoop up that ball with dazzling talent and samba dance around the house , it's just not true , you don't see the X factor contenstents when they was shit you only ever see the finished product, now go ask anyone who has actually made it in there field , and they will tell you anyone can do what they have done with hard work , there attitude is quite different and that is why they are at the top ,there strong willed determined have self belief etc ,

[BertKoor]

Let's try it with a slightly more elaborate answer then.

There are some factors involved, being:
a) the talent you're born with
b) the effort put into developing it

With either of these totally lacking, it won't ever fly. That's for sure.
You need at least some talent and some work in developing it.

Am I right in understanding you believe every single person can become a reasonable musician?

How many people that can't hold a tune even after years of training do you have to meet in order to be convinced of the contrary? These people do surely exist. Look at social media for lots of evidence.

[matrixo9]

My son has no.natural talent he couldn't even do 5 kick ups
Three years ago , now he has moved up 4 league's and is controlling games , I always tell him he can get as good as the others if he works hard enough, I even told him this when I knew he was rubbish , and he has proved my theory right in this context he may not become a top player he may give it up one day I don't know at this point , but that will all be about his choice his mentality not his natural ability, in 5 years anyone can be top level in anything , maybe not always the greatest but good , my dad never believed in me always told me negativity
And it's installed in me ( maybe because I now believe that ) but with my kids I won't let them have that negativity so maybe if we can't do it for ourselves , let's stop teaching our kids this false notion , because if they stop and dad this is too hard that's just fine , they don't have a passion and don't push them too hard please , but if they have a love and passio. Don't hold them back with , you gotta be very lucky boy only one in a million makes it you don't have the talent
I can still feel my dad's words you'll never be no Phil Collins , even though Phil Collins is good , wha the f was my dad on about man was deluded that Phil Collins was God

[BertKoor]

My conclusion is that your son may not be the most talented, but has at least some talent. Not absolutely zero. These people do however exist. You seem to deny that with anecdotes.

[matrixo9]

Let's try it with a slightly more elaborate answer then.

There are some factors involved, being:
a) the talent you're born with
b) the effort put into developing it

With either of these totally lacking, it won't ever fly. That's for sure.
You need at least some talent and some work in developing it.

Am I right in understanding you believe every single person can become a reasonable musician?

How many people that can't hold a tune even after years of training do you have to meet in order to be convinced of the contrary? These people do surely exist. Look at social media for lots of evidence.

Yes every single person in the world can become a musician I'm afraid
You are not special
You just enjoyed it and got good
Most people's problem is they give up because it's too hard , I see hundreds of guitars being bought in lockdown only now to be in the pawn shop , I have heard how can you play like that by loads of peopl when I'm only strumming simple chords that I learned in weeks , simarlaly I lack the belief that I could play lead guitar so I only strum , does that mea I lack the talent ? Or the self belief because they are different things or are the is the so called talent your calling it just th difference between a confident and no so confident man ?
These people singing for years are either doing something wrong or they could have a bad tone or the self belief , I know my neighbours think I'm a bad singer some people have heard me and gone your shit because they heard me where ive stopped for six months and drank loads of beer , I only sound good when I put the effort in and practice , the tone I have comes from the voice I have developed, singers / styles I like , the voice I have acquired from the area I live in , your not born with anything but a clean slate in my opinion . But that's just me I guess.

[matrixo9]

My conclusion is that your son may not be the most talented, but has at least some talent. Not absolutely zero. These people do however exist. You seem to deny that with anecdotes.

You would not have said that a couple of years ago if you see him on the field , kid was worse than me now he would run rings around me

I don't know why none of my kids want to be musicians you know
One wants to be a footballer the other a film producer /director .

[lobanov]

There are things that I make better than others do and that are easy or easier for me than other things. I clearly see my results, they aren't bad and this doesn't take an enormous amount of time. That's my talents. And there are things... hmmm... that seems to be beyond my possibilities. I don't even know how to approach to it. I am able (in theory) to do it but the way to them will be very hard and long.

So taking into consideration some people will have better athletic Ness they could be faster taller stronger , etc
Is talent really a thing born inside us
I don't think it is
I think we all have traits advantages disadvantages etc , but talent is honed developed over time bit by bit , and a good mindset is needed to grow
Then you see someon amazing on stage and your like wow he/she is talented but you didn't see the days weeks months years of graft /hard work to get there i believe talent is made not born
I think some of us with normal lives jobs like to tell ourselves that talent is a magical thing
Just to make ourselves feel better
Wha do you think ?

You mixed up abilities and work. Without work nothing will be. Even talented people need to make something. Without it their talent is just something potential, it almost doesn't exist. It must be showed, and that requires efforts. The question is an amount of work.

You are talking about hard work. OK. If you don't have talent you can succeed by hard work. I agree, there is no reason to give up. But it doesn't cancel existence of innate abilities and dispositions to make something better and without effort or with less effort. Or... Some of us are beautiful by birth, some are ugly as hell. Objectively. Ugly one really can become beautiful. But now he/she isn't.

P. S. It's more important to know and not to forget your talents than compare yourself to others and say: 'O, I'm not talented...' I'm not talented in this but I'm talented in other things. So i'm talented