Mide-side plugins what r they good 4?

[bmanic]

M/S has its place. The fact that it can destroy panning makes me confused why people relate it to / use it in mastering so often.

I suspect that this is a myth created by the plugin industry mainly (brainworx being one of the most notorious in promoting mid/side stuff over the years).

Mid/Side processing, at least of all the people I know in my local little audio mastering business here in Finland, is mainly one of those "last resorts" type of deal.. or used _extremely subtly_ for tiny enhancements. You only use it if you absolutely need it. If there are things that are out of phase elements that are vastly too loud, then you'd use EQ on (or compression if it's dynamic in nature and that happens to fit better the overall mix) it to tone it down and make it more balanced.

The problem with any kind of mid/side processing, even if it is super subtle, is that it very easily "detaches" the core, aka the mid where all the energy is, from the side which can cause some serious cohesion breaking. Things that are hard panned yet very tight together can break up and not feel "attached" any more.

So yeah, I have no idea why it is always touted as the be-all/end-all mastering solution. It most definitely is not! At least not in my experience.


.. but for mixing and sound design it can be and often is very useful! I almost always use EQ on the sides of my reverb and delay sends, to precisely carve out what parts I want to be mostly centered. For instance on a snare reverb send, you can force the brighter parts of the reverb to be almost mono, to give the snare that crack in the center.. whereas the low end parts can be more at the side, giving the illusion of a snare that is both centered but yet not ordinary mono.

[jBam]

I suspect that this is a myth created by the plugin industry mainly (brainworx being one of the most notorious in promoting mid/side stuff over the years).

Yeah, I think you're right (in that it's a hyped up solution). It's sold as a stereo mixing/mastering dream, when it has inherent risks; and you see everywhere (these days), people saying "it's good, but I won't buy it until they include M/S"; and I'm thinking "sh#t, it's such a specific stereo effect that does so much irreversible processing... people have gone mental."... and it's not hard to encode/decode separate from a plugin anyway, but let's not encourage it anymore than it already is lol...

They/we should totally start officially calling it Sum and Difference just to remind people what's actually going on

[kritikon]

I've never used mid/side stuff in 40 years. Never actually saw or heard a need to. If people want to spend money on plugins that they have no clue what they do, it's their money I suppose. It's not as if there isn't already a huge amount of control for what you can do in stereo already...

I do think there's an element of trendy. For example you see posts about having to sidechain all sorts of things to other things...yeah, whatever. Got very trendy at a specific time when some know-nothing DJ found a new toy he could play with and create some publicity then everyone followed. It has its uses, can be done so much easier in s/w nowadays, but absolutely not essential for anything. Even kick/bass. If you feel you have to automatically sidechain them, maybe you're already ignoring some major basics like choosing the right sounds, Eqing, oversqueezing dynamics etc? Same with mid/side - maybe look at how you mix stereo firstly rather than use an esoteric gizmo at mastering. people use what they want to use though - complicating things often makes it more difficult than it has to be though.

Oh yeah...and pumping mixes. i.e. bad dynamics. It was very trendy, now it's not. But at the time even here you would assume it was something you had to do, because the kids all wanted to sound like the artist of the day that mixed badly.

M/S will probably have its day and go away.

[kidslow]

Wouldn't it be beneficial (perhaps even obligatory?) to use a mid/side plugin chain to mix a live recording that was made using a mid/side mic placement?

[legendCNCD]

M/S will probably have its day and go away.

Umm... no. Its just a tool/method to be used when its needed.

[bmanic]

Wouldn't it be beneficial (perhaps even obligatory?) to use a mid/side plugin chain to mix a live recording that was made using a mid/side mic placement?

Not at all. You only have to decode it once recorded. The actual processing later is just normal L/R.

[DCrown]

MS feature was never a reason for me to buy a plugin, I ve checked how many plugins I have or know with ms:
Fabfilter proQ
PA Blackbox ms
UVI Shade
AA Erin
PA Bettermaker
Well, I think there must be some more!?

[MogwaiBoy]

Well, I think there must be some more!?

SO many more - it's a pretty common feature now. You can also de/encode your own M/S split if you like. It's not a very special point of difference anymore (sorry Brainworx).

[imrae]

I've mainly used mid-side processing to fix mono compatibility issues.

[Synthack]

......

[Ploki]

I mean, I prefer subtle sidechain EQ and Compressor if the mix is to narrow, over multiband "wideners" and similar shenanigans.

I sometimes prefer it over L/R because unlinked L/R can cause phantom center to dance a little, and i like that i can keep the phantom center really centered.

If i get stems for mastering i'll do it on things that take it well (i.e. synths) and won't m/s the stereo bus.

It's an easy method to f**k shit up, just like every other stereoizing tool out there.
Thanks ozone, for enabling people to do so many bad mixes.

[MogwaiBoy]

I've mainly used mid-side processing to fix mono compatibility issues.

With you on this. Just pulled some heavy 300hz out of the sides on a track - the mud was so wide it made you feel queasy with headphones

Checked in mono... improvement

[Weasel-Boy]

antic604 wrote:

“M/S processing is huge for sound design and creating spatial effects. A DAW that doesn't have Mid/Side splitter device and thus ability to make anything Mid/Side - like Cubase, for example - isn't a real DAW in my opinion ”

Does their 8 band EQ “Frequency” count? It can do M/S on 8 individual bands.

[Ploki]

antic604 wrote:

“M/S processing is huge for sound design and creating spatial effects. A DAW that doesn't have Mid/Side splitter device and thus ability to make anything Mid/Side - like Cubase, for example - isn't a real DAW in my opinion ”

Does their 8 band EQ “Frequency” count? It can do M/S on 8 individual bands.

no, i think he means loading any plug as "dual mono" - L/R or M/S.

[Unaspected]

Do you use mide side plugins?
I have some, but have not found any use for them, especially not on master track.
If mono lead vocals or bass do not sound right in a mix, I do not use mide side, I fix it in the mix on the track.

Yeah, I agree with you (and above with Ah_Dziz, though I'm not that artful). I'd say m/s e.q.ing, especially, would come in handy more for mixers who don't have access to the individual tracks. Truly, if we can't fix everything before it hits the master, we're just being lazy.

But this topic isn't for mastering engineers only, surely?

M/S processing is huge for sound design and creating spatial effects. A DAW that doesn't have Mid/Side splitter device and thus ability to make anything Mid/Side - like Cubase, for example - isn't a real DAW in my opinion

Especially as it would imply lacking a mixing desk.