Is talent born or created with hard work and practice

[Hink]

dude do you really think I have to worry about brain surgery? What's to operate on?

i heard a peanut rattle when you were headbanging.

that was seeds leftover from the 80's

[jancivil]

"Yes every single person in the world can become a musician I'm afraid"

That's absurd. You're doing and insisting we do absolutes all through this. And this is probably self-serving.
There are plenty of people with 'a tin ear'. There are plenty of people that appear here that are never going to get good.
Seems to be a pretty sizable market for software that does your work for you.

The notion that it's all hard work is sketchy; one has to work hard to cultivate what gift they may have to continue to grow, but the whole <working hard to> is not a given for a person. It isn't a magic, but aptitude is what it is. I have a rather low aptitude for mechanical reason. My maths aptitude is not tops. This can improve, but to be clear and honest, no amount of work a person could ever hope to do is going to break thru those ceilings.

On the other hand a comparatively modest gift may be developed into genius. Frank Zappa was not a musical prodigy, for example. To contrast with a Mozart knowing the notes of a opera passage by ear at 6.

[Erisian]

For me, I never had a gift. I loved music so I learned to play the notes - a simple mathematical procedure - then my imagination did the rest. I simply can't put my finger on anything that I can define as "talent." Anybody who cannot learn to play music must have either a psychological, or more likely, a neurological disorder, or they are simply not interested enough.

[Hink]

of course another word for gifted or aptitude my be passion. Perhaps our aptitude is nurtured by our environment, by our upbringing, our beliefs based on our upbringing and many other factors besides gifted. For me anyhow the gift is a gift that keeps giving, I say it all the time...I play for peace of mind and in my heart and soul, the gift is the vehicle to which I achieve this , that vehicle is my passion which happens to be playing the guitar.

What my passion is not, not a star, not visions of grandeur, not a showman, not validation from anyone else, my gift is that when I play it brings peace of mind to bring peace to my heart and soul, it has been there in every single tragedy in my life as well as every victory. It is MY passion. Just as so many other things in life, like my passion for where I live, the wildlife that I love so much...that was a gift from my parents.

Others may will disagree but this is how I have been for decades, got my first guitar over 50 years ago, surely have put in my time, my hard work...in other words I am not sure we are born with an aptitude, it is a result of our environment and experiences. I say it all the time, if I post music (which I rarely do, because it isnt about that for me) it has already done everything for me I asked of it.

I am thankful for my gift, it is my gift, it's been true, loyal to me and provided a wonderful opportunity for personal growth.

[matrixo9]

of course another word for gifted or aptitude my be passion. Perhaps our aptitude is nurtured by our environment, by our upbringing, our beliefs based on our upbringing and many other factors besides gifted. For me anyhow the gift is a gift that keeps giving, I say it all the time...I play for peace of mind and in my heart and soul, the gift is the vehicle to which I achieve this , that vehicle is my passion which happens to be playing the guitar.

What my passion is not, not a star, not visions of grandeur, not a showman, not validation from anyone else, my gift is that when I play it brings peace of mind to bring peace to my heart and soul, it has been there in every single tragedy in my life as well as every victory. It is MY passion. Just as so many other things in life, like my passion for where I live, the wildlife that I love so much...that was a gift from my parents.

Others may will disagree but this is how I have been for decades, got my first guitar over 50 years ago, surely have put in my time, my hard work...in other words I am not sure we are born with an aptitude, it is a result of our environment and experiences. I say it all the time, if I post music (which I rarely do, because it isnt about that for me) it has already done everything for me I asked of it.

I am thankful for my gift, it is my gift, it's been true, loyal to me and provided a wonderful opportunity for personal growth.

You put it beautifully more than I ever could
Exactly wha I feel , like the kid who is completely bored by maths but excels at althetics I think is always driven by how much u like it enjoy it ( which is what this aptitude marlarky is I think , when my boy started he wasn't an athlete he was a big fat pork pie couldn't get a girlfriend worst football player ever ( well a very bad one , he is undoubtedly an athlete now and a good player , and alll the girls are on his case , I neee to follow suit ( not with th football

[Hink]

ty You need to work on your () aptitude...especially )

[Synthack]

......

[matrixo9]

"Yes every single person in the world can become a musician I'm afraid"

That's absurd. You're doing and insisting we do absolutes all through this. And this is probably self-serving.
There are plenty of people with 'a tin ear'. There are plenty of people that appear here that are never going to get good.
Seems to be a pretty sizable market for software that does your work for you.

The notion that it's all hard work is sketchy; one has to work hard to cultivate what gift they may have to continue to grow, but the whole <working hard to> is not a given for a person. It isn't a magic, but aptitude is what it is. I have a rather low aptitude for mechanical reason. My maths aptitude is not tops. This can improve, but to be clear and honest, no amount of work a person could ever hope to do is going to break thru those ceilings.

On the other hand a comparatively modest gift may be developed into genius. Frank Zappa was not a musical prodigy, for example. To contrast with a Mozart knowing the notes of a opera passage by ear at 6.

" Every person can be a musician
If they love it and practice often why not ?
Tin ear sounds like a disability
If we ar talking about disabilities
Even those people are forever surprising us
Like the one armed piano player etc

And Ceilings? , people only are held back by beliefs and fears what they can and can't do
And false notions of " this is just the way I am"
Like at some point you have told your subconscious brain that u can or only want to do something to a level
And that ceiling is your own making
By your own interest or confidence in that field

If someone is trying to learn a certain style of playing and they keep getting stressed with thereselves
There never going to get there , unless they calm down and be positive about what they are doing , but you would tell someone
"You have hit that ceiling my boy that's aptitude "
Give up now that's where you belong .

Sorry if you think I'm arguing but I'm not
I'm just a questioner , my brain is forever trying to figure things out , which isn't alway a good thing as can lead to depression /overthinking

Anyway I just feel this talent is born thing
Is the dream killer , it's literally
A way of making people feel safe that it's ok you have given up , you don't have an aptitude or talent for it
Maybe we just can't be botherd to get good
Or our confidence is damaged we can change that
But kids there not bogged down by this crap that holds us all back , and as long as you believe in yourself you can be whatever you want to be
And like I said people who are there , they will say
" Sure anyone can do it if I did "
But we will be like nah , he is just special
He has that special something
Give up George you'll never be like Phil Collins
" Maybe your right dad pass me the spliff and a nice Cold beer and I'll be down that factory as soon as I turn 16 "

[matrixo9]

ty You need to work on your () aptitude...especially )

100%

[BertKoor]

Y'all probably seen these "... Got Talent" shows on TV. The contestants don't get judged on their talent at all, but on proficiency plus likeability.

Proficiency is the product of talent/aptitude and effort. With either being zero, the product is zero. With either being high and the other mediocre, the product can be high.

You cannot grow talent, but effort is within your own control. It gets affected by motivation, ambition, character, passion, etc etc.

In high school I found there were two kinds of courses. Things like algebra, math, biology, science, I found it easy, I had a talent for them. Just listen to the teacher, maybe read the theory book again before exams, I found it easy to understand and got a 7 or 8 out of 10 without much effort. Classmates with less talent were working very hard for similar grades, and sometimes got better grades than me.
The other type of couses required more work. Reading lots of books, drill-teaching long lists of foreign language words, writing long papers and doing research. I had no motivation to put in the work.
So it took me 8 instead of 6 years to finish highschool. At university the same courses I had no trouble with in highschool were suddenly problematic for me. Because I never learned to work for something. Talent alone with minimal effort was not sufficient anymore. Students with less talent got way further than me because I could/did not put in the required effort to get to the next level of proficiency.

So while some talent helps in getting at the first level of proficiency, it's not enough on the long run. I once talked to someone participating in bow & arrow shooting - national championship level. Not a very popular sport. He said, if you do this for some years then you can be at that level as well. Not much talent required. Guys without motivation or a grain of talent just give up before reaching that level of proficiency.


Regarding kids, one should never discourage them with anything. For them having fun is of far more importance. And they are still "under construction". Some kids are late in some aspects.
Same is true for paying customers/students. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

[Michael L]

Can you love something so much that you want to work very hard for a long time to get better at it, without having talent?

[pekbro]

I have high aptitude for many things, some seem to see me as a jerk because of it. Thats why i dont like the word talent. Lots if people over the course of my life have used it to try and diminish my accomplishment.

[matrixo9]

Tbh I don't think talent is your ability to do something at the beginning of your journey neither is aptitude
That's desire , listening taking notice , wanting to partake in these lessons activities , i believe talent is the thing you acquire after you have put in all the work then when your good your talented , some of these kids all working at the same thing some are daydreaming about many different things , it's the ones taking notice who are learning is that aptitude or just a desire to learn that thing ? Anyway
Good answers guys talk tomorrow I'm off too bed cheers

[BONES]

In your reply there lacks your self confidence in ever believing you can be as good, and comparing yourself to others ability , this is what is holding you back and me I'm afraid tbh , and because you aren't, think u can't

You cannot possibly be serious? If there is one thing I do not lack in any way, shape or for it is confidence.

your telling yourself he has been blessed

No, I am making a rational, objective observation of reality, totally free of ego or self. We all have our own talents, we just each need to be aware of what they are. I, for example, am the best body-surfer I know. I don't know why, what it is that makes me better at it than anyone else, it's just something I have always been really good at. OTOH, even after 25 seasons I was only ever a competent football player. Those things are just facts.

I can sing nicely I started whe I was seven but if I don't practise for a while I'm kinda back at beginning stage again ish , but yes my TONE Is there but that has to do with the music you heard as a kid and sung and the way you talk that has SHAPED That over the years

No, not even close. Singing is all about confidence. If you don't have the confidence to belt it out, you'll never be much good at it. OTOH, with enough confidence you can paper over most of your weaknesses. Well, I can but maybe that's because I can really belt it out. I'll bet I'm at least twice as loud as you. I think my voice is probably better suited to opera than rock music but it's been easy enough to fake it until I make it.

the problem in telling kids that this Talent thing is just born , is they will never try more than a certain amount

The alternative is to set them up to fail. And fail they will. Of course, any idiot can sing but talented singers are few and far between. e.g. Do you think Bjork could sing like Adele? Because I'm pretty confident Adele could sing like Bjork. So the difference is talent.

I'll give you another example. My best friend from school has done 10th grade singing at the Conservatorium and sings in the Sydney Symphony Choir, so he's way more practiced than most. Yet, at his 60th birthday party he decided he had to sing My Way and it was awful. I'd have been really embarrassed to have done it but he is even more confident that I am so he ploughed on regardless. The lesson here is to be aware of your limitations.

nah I'm giving up halfway up this rope this guy at the top just has more talent than me

Is that how you think about things? That something is only worth doing if you believe you are the best at it? Like I said, I was no great footballer but whilst that may have been frustrating at times, I learned to play to my strengths and mostly enjoyed playing. I was never quickest up the rope but I always got there (and I was always in the first three to finish the obstacle course).

this attitude is what holds us back

No, it's what stops me from making a fool of myself on a regular basis. As I said, you have to know your limitations and work to your strengths.

a million reasons I'm sure there's way more people with better guitar skills and poetry skills that a lot of the famous people up there

Of course there are, success is far more about drive and ambition than it is about talent or skill. Always has been, always will be. You have to want to win to be a winner.

go ask anyone who has actually made it in there field , and they will tell you anyone can do what they have done with hard work , there attitude is quite different and that is why they are at the top ,there strong willed determined have self belief etc

You are confusing success and talent. There are plenty of successful people without much talent and there are plenty of talented people who never have any success. e.g. The best drummer I have ever seen in my life played in a punk band from Canberra. He was absolutely amazing, better even than Rob Hirst from Midnight Oil, but I can't so much as remember the name of the band he was in. All I can recall is being blown away when I saw them at the Strawberry Hills Hotel in 1982 or '83. I saw them a few more times and then they just disappeared, never to be seen again. But I will remember that guy's talent for the rest of my life.

Three years ago , now he has moved up 4 league's and is controlling games

As a teenaged coach I took a team from the bottom of 4th Division in Under 8s to the finals in 1st Division as Under 10s. Kids naturally get better as they get older and their coordination and situational awareness improves. All I did was give them a bit of self-confidence (because I am a talented leader).

I always tell him he can get as good as the others if he works hard enough

How do you know he wants to be as good as the others? I always enjoyed playing but hated training. I wanted to be as good as I could be, I didn't care how I compared to anyone else (still dn't). Are you sure you are not putting pressure on him to do something he isn't interested in?

in 5 years anyone can be top level in anything , maybe not always the greatest but good , my dad never believed in me always told me negativity

So you're compensating by going to the other extreme when reality is somewhere in the middle. The thing I love most about cricket is that it is one sport where the 10,000 hour thing will never work. If you want to play cricket for your country, you have to have special talent, a level of hand-eye coordination that is vanishly rare and simply cannot be learned or acquired through practice. Ditto for Formula 1 drivers - they are in a class above us mere mortals.

[Hink]

In high school I was not very good at sports, I got made fun of for not being able to do jumping jacks when I went out for my high school cross country team...my coach decided to mock me by having me, the smallest kid, the runt, race his all start senior up a hill (about 200 yards)...his tune changed when I got back down and his chin was still on the ground because his all star just watched my ass go by him. I also set the League record in indoor track for the the 50 yd that year (5.2 seconds) and tied the state record my freshman year as one of only three freshman in the state of mass invited to the allstar meet, I would have broke the record because I ran barefoot, they wouldnt let me at the allstar meet. I never ran track again and even though I earned it I did not go get my letter at the end of the season.

Running wasnt a talent, it was a physical attribute I was born with, I was always the smallest and fastest kid in my neighborhood, I was also the kid who went up the ropes in the gym with just his hands in grade school...no talent, I was small and took less strength...anti-talent. Kinda the same as being naturally talented at body surfing.

If there is one thing I do not lack in any way, shape or for it is confidence.

The dickens you say