Is talent born or created with hard work and practice

[BONES]

Yes every single person in the world can become a musician I'm afraid
You are not special
You just enjoyed it and got good

No, I didn't. I got to a level of competence that allows me to do what I do, that's all. And I've had to work five times harder to get to that level than my bandmate has, yet my bandmate is still a more competent musician than I am. Before a gig I will rehearse at home for maybe 30 or 40 hours and we might do two or three run-throughs together, which is the only time he'll rehearse at all, and I'll still make twice as many mistakes during the gig as he does. He is just naturally better at it than me and that, my friends, is because he has talent and all I have is practice.

I lack the belief that I could play lead guitar so I only strum , does that mea I lack the talent ? Or the self belief because they are different things or are the is the so called talent your calling it just th difference between a confident and no so confident man ?

They are different things. You know talent when you see or hear it. Susan Boyle is a good example.

These people singing for years are either doing something wrong or they could have a bad tone or the self belief

Bob Dylan is undoubtedly a talented songwriter but there is no measure by which anyone would say he is a talented singer. That doesn't stop him singing, though, neither does it stop millions of people from enjoying his catawauling.

the tone I have comes from the voice I have developed, singers / styles I like , the voice I have acquired from the area I live in , your not born with anything but a clean slate in my opinion . But that's just me I guess.

That's rubbish. My vocal tone comes from my vocal equipment. When I sing in what you'd consider the normal range for rock singers, it destroys my throat in minutes, whereas I can sing an octave below that range all day with no ill-effects. Weirdly, I can also sing quite competently an octave or two above that without any problems, although without the same power.

There is one kid for example in my son's old team He has amazing skill , but I have spoke to his parents , and there beliefs are holding him back , he will be on the building site with his older brother in a coupl of years , down the pub after , sounds like my dad all over again.

And it is highly likely he'll be just as happy as your son, perhaps even happier, and isn't that the only thing that really matters?

I'm satisfied for now in my opinion that talent is made and not born with what I have seen in my kids and others .

Then you are wrong. Another example is the current Women's World no. 1 tennis player, Ash Barty. A few years ago she took a break from tennis and ended up playing cricket for her state in the national competition. That's because she has natural sporting talent that most of the rest of us lack.

You see it all the time in sport - elite athletes who are brilliant at multiple sports and have to choose which to pursue as a career. Alex Carey, the current Australian Wicketkeeper, was captain of an AFL (Australian Rules Football) team in the national competition before he decided to concentrate on cricket. That's only possible because the man has talent that you and I will never have. Steve Smith, one of the best batsman in world cricket, actually got into the team as a bowler but decided he wanted to be a batsman and used his prodigious talent and hard work to become the batsman he is today. AFAIK, that is a unique feat in modern sport, not something anyone could do without a lot of raw talent (and hard work).

That I've squandered what talents I acquired

You can't acquire talent. You can learn techniques and acquire skills but talent is innate - you have it or you don't. But again, so what if you did squander it? As I said, I'm the best body-surfer I've ever known or seen but that didn't mean I wanted to pursue a career as a pro body-surfer. That would have sucked all the enjoyment out of it, in much the same way as racing sucks all the enjoyment out of sailing.

as people always said you have a great voice , I never built the confidence or self belief needed , which is the main thing I feel you need over ability

If you want to be the very best, you need all three things - talent, drive/ambition (hard work) and confidence - but if you are lacking one you will only go so far.

[BONES]

of course another word for gifted or aptitude my be passion.

I think passion comes more into the drive/ambition side of the equation. When you are passionate about something, you will put in the hard yards that someone less motivated might not. So you'll get better than those people but you won't be able to compete with people who have the same passion as you plus talent.

Exactly wha I feel , like the kid who is completely bored by maths but excels at althetics I think is always driven by how much u like it enjoy it ( which is what this aptitude marlarky is I think

Nah, that doesn't hold up either. I'm good at maths, I majored in it at uni, but I don't like it or enjoy it. OTOH, there are many things I love that I am not good at, like cricket.

Every person can be a musician
If they love it and practice often why not ?

So what? Every person can drive a car if they pass a test, it doesn't make them good at it.

And Ceilings? , people only are held back by beliefs and fears

No, they are held back by ability. That is simply the reality of the situation and if it wasn't, we'd all be no. 1. But there is only one no. 1 and he/she is almost certainly the person with the most talent because all the other factors can only get you so far. There only so many hours in a day that you can practice and there is only so much self-confidence you can have before it becomes a liability.

To look at tennis again, check out Nick Kyrgios - he is a guy with bucketloads of talent who doesn't give a shit. He plays tennis because he's really good at it and doesn't have to work too hard to earn a living. If he was as focused and driven as the top players, he could probably be no. 1 but he's not interested and he doesn't try, yet he's still better than 99% of tennis players in the world. What's that if not talent?

And that ceiling is your own making

Absolute bullshit. If you're 5'4" and have short legs, you will never win a marathon, no matter how hard you try. You'll never play in the NBL, either. You're ceiling is your genetic heritage. How else would you explain the dominance of Kenyan runners in marathons over the last three or four decades? It's because they share the same genepool and something in those genes gives them a natural advantage, a talent, for long distance running. It's nothing they are taught and they don't have anything like the training opportunities that western runners have, it's something innate that they can exploit.

Anyway I just feel this talent is born thing
Is the dream killer , it's literally
A way of making people feel safe that it's ok you have given up , you don't have an aptitude or talent for it

Perhaps it can be but, equally, it can be a way of setting someone up for failure. What if your son was 5'2" and wanted to play pro basketball? Would you tell him that if he tries hard enough he can do it or would you try to make him see that there is just no way someone of his height can ever be competitive at the top level?

But kids there not bogged down by this crap that holds us all back , and as long as you believe in yourself you can be whatever you want to be

No, you can't. If it were otherwise, I'd have been a full-time performer for the last 30 years. There are a lot of factors that come into play, some obvious and some not so obvious but very few of us will ever get to be exactly what we want to be. But that, of course, doesn't matter. I ma ynot have achieved the goals I had set for myself but in other ways I have achieved far more than I could ever have imagined possible. It's all swings and roundabouts and if you are aware of your strengths and your limitations, you'll be ready to take advantage of whatever opportunities come your way.

Give up George you'll never be like Phil Collins

Some people, many successful ones, would use that as motivation to do even better. Phil Collins' dad probably told him he'd never be as good as Bing Crosby but it didn't stop Phil.

Can you love something so much that you want to work very hard for a long time to get better at it, without having talent?

25 seasons of football says "yes, you can".

[MadDogE134]

if it weren't for aids such as autotune and artificial intelligence etc... this stupid question would not even be asked lol

of course some are born with talent... not just in music but i suspect since this is asked on this forum the OP is talking about music. for instance some have the ability to hear and perform perfect pitch naturally while others couldn't hold a tune in a bucket. they were BORN with that ability/talent.

sadly with all the aids today so many untalented people are able to make 'functional' music and THINK they have talent hence all the mediocre music flooded on to the market as of late.

but other than music... some people are born with an innate ability such as rhythm and timing and can naturally dance in time or keep a beat while others dance like spiders and wouldn't know which end of the screwdriver to hit the nail on the head. lol

apparently some have never been around someone that is truly a natural talent. true some can work very hard and get close but some on the other hand do things without effort.

it is truly sad how confused people have become in such a short time...

cheers

[MadDogE134]

a good example from when i was a kid... some could play a trumpet with it's fixed valves but put them on a trombone and they were lost although the instruments are basically the same (except lower register). one has to HEAR the notes on trombone to play it correctly. you can train to play trumpet with little to no talent but you HAVE to have talent to play trombone. the slide is one big variable lol you could train all your life on trombone but if one could not hear the notes correctly in their head or in their ear they would occasionally hit wrong notes although maybe slightly. there IS a such thing as muscle memory i suppose.

[Hink]

perfect pitch is common in asians as many asian dialects are tonal, therefore it is a learned behavior...everything we do is either a learned behavior or a reflex...I actually wonder if man might be a species that no longer has any instincts...just a thing we call human nature, which is indeed a learned behavior, why? Because it's human nature...in fact instinct in other animals is also learned behaviors, the only difference is it' human nature to manipulate it.

[unkow]

Like I said, I was no great footballer but whilst that may have been frustrating at times, I learned to play to my strengths and mostly enjoyed playing.

This. No matter your innate talent, you can always have fun making music. You can have breakthroughs, you can surprise yourself, you can get better.

Not to mention, the ancestors did a lot of the legwork already. They figured out the scales and the chords, they puzzled out where to put the frets in the guitar and the toneholes in the sax. Not to mention the piano -- what's up with all those bits and pieces moving about every time you press a key? And don't get me started on those magnets...

[BertKoor]

i believe talent is the thing you acquire after you have put in all the work

No, that's commonly known as proficiency. There's no "believe" in semantics.
Bloody semantics... words shifting of meaning. Producers ain't what they used to be either

[MadDogE134]

reminds me of the phrase "my truth" lol... a load of hogwash. that is a statement made to make people doubt the word 'truth'... i reckon to make all the lies told these days okay? there is no 'my truth' or 'your truth'... there is but one truth and you rarely hear it anymore.

so hink do you think eating is a learned trait? lol you will seek food LONG before the REAL pain starts. how about breathing? do you know you cannot hold your breath long enough to kill yourself? you will pass out first and the lizard brain will take over and breath. breathing is purely instinctual. so is staying alive. or how about dodging an oncoming car? is it instinct to jump out of the way or is it just a learned response? do you have to be run over to learn to avoid being hit or killed? 'practice makes perfect' lol the "fight or flight" INSTINCT is part of the little lizard brain in the back of our heads and nothing controls the 'lizard brain' but instincts and those instincts came with birth. i wouldn't call that 'human nature'

i think a lot of this thinking stems from 'wanting' everyone to be equal and no one is equal to another... nature has seen fit to NOT make everyone equal. equality nulls out evolution and we (everything in nature) are constantly evolving

i am done with this thread lol... it is not my place to try and teach things that should be logically known already. or is logic a learned trait also? lol

cheers and you all have fun

p.s. i know a lot of Thais that can't hold a tune in a bucket and Thai is arguably the most musical language known to man

[matrixo9]

In your reply there lacks your self confidence in ever believing you can be as good, and comparing yourself to others ability , this is what is holding you back and me I'm afraid tbh , and because you aren't, think u can't

You cannot possibly be serious? If there is one thing I do not lack in any way, shape or for it is confidence.

your telling yourself he has been blessed

No, I am making a rational, objective observation of reality, totally free of ego or self. We all have our own talents, we just each need to be aware of what they are. I, for example, am the best body-surfer I know. I don't know why, what it is that makes me better at it than anyone else, it's just something I have always been really good at. OTOH, even after 25 seasons I was only ever a competent football player. Those things are just facts.

I can sing nicely I started whe I was seven but if I don't practise for a while I'm kinda back at beginning stage again ish , but yes my TONE Is there but that has to do with the music you heard as a kid and sung and the way you talk that has SHAPED That over the years

No, not even close. Singing is all about confidence. If you don't have the confidence to belt it out, you'll never be much good at it. OTOH, with enough confidence you can paper over most of your weaknesses. Well, I can but maybe that's because I can really belt it out. I'll bet I'm at least twice as loud as you. I think my voice is probably better suited to opera than rock music but it's been easy enough to fake it until I make it.

the problem in telling kids that this Talent thing is just born , is they will never try more than a certain amount

The alternative is to set them up to fail. And fail they will. Of course, any idiot can sing but talented singers are few and far between. e.g. Do you think Bjork could sing like Adele? Because I'm pretty confident Adele could sing like Bjork. So the difference is talent.

I'll give you another example. My best friend from school has done 10th grade singing at the Conservatorium and sings in the Sydney Symphony Choir, so he's way more practiced than most. Yet, at his 60th birthday party he decided he had to sing My Way and it was awful. I'd have been really embarrassed to have done it but he is even more confident that I am so he ploughed on regardless. The lesson here is to be aware of your limitations.

nah I'm giving up halfway up this rope this guy at the top just has more talent than me

Is that how you think about things? That something is only worth doing if you believe you are the best at it? Like I said, I was no great footballer but whilst that may have been frustrating at times, I learned to play to my strengths and mostly enjoyed playing. I was never quickest up the rope but I always got there (and I was always in the first three to finish the obstacle course).

this attitude is what holds us back

No, it's what stops me from making a fool of myself on a regular basis. As I said, you have to know your limitations and work to your strengths.

a million reasons I'm sure there's way more people with better guitar skills and poetry skills that a lot of the famous people up there

Of course there are, success is far more about drive and ambition than it is about talent or skill. Always has been, always will be. You have to want to win to be a winner.

go ask anyone who has actually made it in there field , and they will tell you anyone can do what they have done with hard work , there attitude is quite different and that is why they are at the top ,there strong willed determined have self belief etc

You are confusing success and talent. There are plenty of successful people without much talent and there are plenty of talented people who never have any success. e.g. The best drummer I have ever seen in my life played in a punk band from Canberra. He was absolutely amazing, better even than Rob Hirst from Midnight Oil, but I can't so much as remember the name of the band he was in. All I can recall is being blown away when I saw them at the Strawberry Hills Hotel in 1982 or '83. I saw them a few more times and then they just disappeared, never to be seen again. But I will remember that guy's talent for the rest of my life.

Three years ago , now he has moved up 4 league's and is controlling games

As a teenaged coach I took a team from the bottom of 4th Division in Under 8s to the finals in 1st Division as Under 10s. Kids naturally get better as they get older and their coordination and situational awareness improves. All I did was give them a bit of self-confidence (because I am a talented leader).

I always tell him he can get as good as the others if he works hard enough

How do you know he wants to be as good as the others? I always enjoyed playing but hated training. I wanted to be as good as I could be, I didn't care how I compared to anyone else (still dn't). Are you sure you are not putting pressure on him to do something he isn't interested in?

in 5 years anyone can be top level in anything , maybe not always the greatest but good , my dad never believed in me always told me negativity

So you're compensating by going to the other extreme when reality is somewhere in the middle. The thing I love most about cricket is that it is one sport where the 10,000 hour thing will never work. If you want to play cricket for your country, you have to have special talent, a level of hand-eye coordination that is vanishly rare and simply cannot be learned or acquired through practice. Ditto for Formula 1 drivers - they are in a class above us mere mortals.

Those no real changing your mind

You sound like one of those people that has decided there right

I didn't really say you wasn't confident in genaral
I just said somewhere inside you lacks the belief for you to progress like your friend

Oh and when was good singing about being loud and belting ?
Isn't that subjective ?
You sound like your the world's best vocal coach or singer
You may hate my voice I may hate yours

I much prefer Gabrielle aplin to Adele and singers like Lauren aquilaina as opposed to Adele loud big style ,

it is about breathing control not always about being loud there's many different types of singers


But TONE is important Adele's is shaped by the thickness of her cockney accent she talks loud and big and that has come from growing up around her family in South London
I have many women like her in my family with that big cackly voice , I don't much have a fondness for it
In the same my voice is chill and laid back so I much prefer smoother voices as opposed to big ones

And bjork I don't like but a lot of people do
I don't like shouting rock music but a lot of people do ( well I used to lol oasis but I prefer Noel tbh)



, you don't have to be confident on stage just confident in your ability Ayer you practice
And when you say setting your kid up to fail

That is the worst one you are saying right there
Because your telling your kid to stop before he started
I'm not talking about lying to him
I'm believing in him
And failure won't crush someone if they know from thy beginning that it's not all or nothing

[morelia]

I don't think the OP is asking the right question. You can't argue what talent is as it already has a definition. If you can't understand it then that's another matter.

Know your English — What is the difference between ‘talent’ and ‘skill’?
- ‘Talent’ is something that one is born with; it is your natural ability to do something without really thinking about it. For example, you may have no experience in playing tennis, but if you have the talent, you may have no problem keeping the ball in play. You are a natural on the tennis court. ‘Skill’, on the other hand, is something that you acquire after putting in a lot of hard work; unlike talent, it is not inborn, but learnt. Not everyone is talented, but if you make the effort, you can learn a new skill.

[chk071]

I don't know how many identical to this topic threads I've seen on KVR in my time here.

[matrixo9]

Bones just stop it man you sound like the dad's who are just happy to be
You sound like one of those geezers that has to b correct
And highly stuck in Thier ways in the past
YOU CAN BE AS GOOD AS YOUR FRIEND YOU COULD BE , but your happy as you are he wasnt

My son's friend may be happier staying at that club but I have a belief my son can go further
Because he does , time will tell.






no my son is just as happy for that kid , instead of getting to play at a local swimming pool this weekend and getting beaten 3-0 he played for a good team that won 8-0 and had a day out playing another game they won 9-0 at crystal palace academy's training ground he was proper buzzing , there's no hardcore pushing from me , only direction

And about the height thing , there are exceptions to the rule , and if he was 5.4 I'd tell him to push into midfield but at 5.9/5.10 as a 14 year old

Anyway it's not jus About my son


My talent is probably been denied because of the anxiety and shit I've gained over the years I can't deny that
It's ruined me that's my own problem

But I'm telling you I wasnt born with it I picked up the Mic and thought I like this I'll try to sound like the people on the record , I remember that when I was around 7

Your attitude bones is I can do this this is me
And that's not defined or pre destined
Your bones the geezer because of where you from who you grew up around what shaped and defined you

If you was adopted out to China and brought up there in different souroundings maybe you would be bones the buissnessman who owned a million dollar company we will never know

But I refuse to believe that we are pre destined by DNA

As I said musicians who have been successful don't come out and talk like this I've spoke to a couple


"Thy have the attitude anyone can do this "

The ones that don't who are a bit butt hurt say

This person is special

I've seen singers down the pub who can belt like Adele on the weekly in pubs like Adele maybe even better than her she isn't special ( she is good )
She just has something else commitment drive to be the best , desire etc confidence
Which has been built over the years
She ain't looking like I can't be Phil Collins she's saying I wanna be Phil Collins and more
( Probably not Phil Collins but u get what I mean )

[matrixo9]

I don't think the OP is asking the right question. You can't argue what talent is as it already has a definition. If you can't understand it then that's another matter.

Know your English — What is the difference between ‘talent’ and ‘skill’?
- ‘Talent’ is something that one is born with; it is your natural ability to do something without really thinking about it. For example, you may have no experience in playing tennis, but if you have the talent, you may have no problem keeping the ball in play. You are a natural on the tennis court. ‘Skill’, on the other hand, is something that you acquire after putting in a lot of hard work; unlike talent, it is not inborn, but learnt. Not everyone is talented, but if you make the effort, you can learn a new skill.

Talent is something to me you aquire after years
Of practice , not when you pick up the bat I was drunk when I stated this so your right I'll re phrase it

[chk071]

Talent is something to me you aquire after years
Of practice , not when you pick up the bat I was drunk when I stated this so your right I'll re phrase it

No, talent is something you get born with.

E.g. you surely won't be a ballett dancer, if you were born with two left hands.

And, yes, of course there is talent. Generation X thinking, and lack of knowledge or education won't change a thing about that.

Morelia's post describes it well really. The best athletes, for example, combine talent and skills, and become what they are. Others will never become that good, no matter how long and often they practice, to learn some skills. That's life. For example, I used to do several sports, and I never was good at running fast, no matter what I did. My physique simply isn't suited for that.

Fortunately, different sports, or even the same sport require different properties. In football/soccer, there can be fast and a bit more slow players. Small and tall players. Slim and sturdy players.

[matrixo9]

Talent is something to me you aquire after years
Of practice , not when you pick up the bat I was drunk when I stated this so your right I'll re phrase it

No, talent is something you get born with.

E.g. you surely won't be a ballett dancer, if you were born with two left hands.

And, yes, of course there is talent. Generation X thinking, and lack of knowledge or education won't change a thing about that.

Morelia's post describes it well really. The best athletes, for example, combine talent and skills, and become what they are. Others will never become that good, no matter how long and often they practice, to learn some skills. That's life.

We're jut going around in circles two people trying to talk over each other not listening


Sure ok look let's have kid a and kid b
Kid a may learn things quicker than kid b because he thinks on his feet is confident , and kid b drags his feet a little is laid back not in a rush

On paper one may look like he has more talent and aptitude but doesn't anyone look in five years whether kid b will become the better ?


Imagine kid a got accepted by man United academy , because he was faster better than kid a in the beginning kid b was slower etc not as fit

6 years pass , kid a gets dropped by Manchester United gives up football does something else

Kid b in the meantime has been working hard at lower league because he never gave up and is back in the league with Leeds United

Who is more talented here ?

Well kid a showed it on the beginning

But if kid b now gets a cap for England and kid a goes into th wilderness
Every person that likes footbal would say kid b

So this talent thing the other kid had in the beginning was confidence in his ability which like Al mindsets ca change the other kid built his up other time
I've already said some.kids may have physical traits
But it doesn't define you
We don't all show promise at first , some kids / people get REAL talent by dedication
And that is also real talent
Talent is talent all these singers busking on the street have talent all the premier League players , league two players have talent , but they learned these lalents , sure not all talants will get you to the top , but you can be what you want to be
Sure time runs out
But in the beginning we are all blank canvases
We don't have pre destinations

Bones , your probably a lovely man by the way
But you sound like my cousin
Who is a nice guy by the way we just don't talk about this shit lol
Peace guys