If you had to stick to one DAW - and ONLY its native 1st party devices + sounds - which one would it be?

[machinesworking]

Reason has the worst support and protection scheme of all DAWs. The instruments and fx are good though. They however, not better than 3rd party or IMO Live and Logic, otherwise, it would be more popular.

Disagree, Reason 12 has a ton of instruments and FX all top notch. you have Reason lite or whatever, not the same. There are 18 included instruments, maybe 5 of them are generic stock plug ins, most are super useful unique tools. The question isn't about CP or support. I would rate my DAW of choice as far better than Cubase or Reason if that was the case. It's a simple one time call and response, not a dongle or whatever PACE level thing Steinberg introduce. Seriously pot calling the kettle black here.
DP has top notch FX and sub par instruments, if I were to use your logic I would choose it based on the FX alone and ignore the mediocre instruments. Reason IMO suffers in UX and the sequencer department, but the FX and instruments are top notch. I never use it as a DAW, just as a VST rack instrument, and it's great.

Max 4 Live and Bitwigs Grid are in classes by themselves, there's nothing like them in other DAWs, so it's hard to compare.

In terms of integrated systems, Logic has everyone beat if you hate plug ins and programming your own plug ins like in Bitwig and Live, simply because they stole Alchemy, and the AI drum stuff is 100% unique at this point.

[machinesworking]

Reason has the worst support and protection scheme of all DAWs. The instruments and fx are good though. They however, not better than 3rd party or IMO Live and Logic, otherwise, it would be more popular.

Disagree, Reason 12 has a ton of instruments and FX all top notch. you have Reason lite or whatever, not the same. There are 18 included instruments, maybe 5 of them are generic stock plug ins, most are super useful unique tools. The question isn't about CP or support. I would rate my DAW of choice as far better than Cubase or Reason if that was the case. It's a simple one time call and response, not a dongle or whatever PACE level thing Steinberg introduce. Seriously pot calling the kettle black here.
DP has top notch FX and sub par instruments, if I were to use your logic I would choose it based on the FX alone and ignore the mediocre instruments. Reason IMO suffers in UX and the sequencer department, but the FX and instruments are top notch. I never use it as a DAW, just as a VST rack instrument, and it's great.

Max 4 Live and Bitwigs Grid are in classes by themselves, there's nothing like them in other DAWs, so it's hard to compare.

In terms of integrated systems, Logic has everyone beat if you hate plug ins and programming your own plug ins like in Bitwig and Live, simply because they stole Alchemy, and the AI drum stuff is 100% unique at this point. A handful of useful instruments in Cubase doesn't compare. Like I said I use DP11, which has only one complex instrument, Mx4, but that's it really, besides bare bones stuff, so I'm not basing my choices off of the DAW I use.

[Tj Shredder]

Yeah Bitwig‘s Synths and VST can by far not compete with Ableton.

Though I am a Max power user and for sure I could create anything as M4L devices, I still prefer in a DAW context the Grid. I am way faster cobbling together the weirdest MPE ready experimental synth…
The other stock synths and fx of Bitwig is all I would need…
The Grid is inspiring, though limited compared to Max.
They can compete easily… And for me Bitwig as a complete package would keep me creating far better than Live ever could…

I mean compete not in terms of crazyness, but rather quality and completeness.

Ableton is pretty complete, beside Vocoder, Looper and Beat Repeat it has almost all Fx you can imagine. And you are right - with M4L you have no limits at all. Furthermore the Fx on Ableton have many features. Fx in Bitwig are more basic, although have some advantage with the modular approach (e.g. Ableton Echo vs. Bitwig Delay).

But as I can estimate, I rate the Fx quality in Ableton much higher. They have filters and EQ from Cytomic, Instruments from AAS, Libraries from Spitfire Audio. Bitwig is pretty average quality in comparison to that.

With Ableton you could literally release a track without any 3rd party plugins, just in terms of effects quality. (The same with Logic, FL Studio, Cubase). I am not sure, if you could reach the same result with Bitwig.

Of course you could argue, that a pro who is know what he is doing, will always be better with Bitwig Fx than an average hobbyist or semi-pro with Ableton Fx. But that is true for all

I often use EQ8 over Pro-Q, standard compressor or The Glue over all the other compressor I own, just because they are so well integrated and quality is just on par with other 3rd party plugins.

For Bitwig I don't feel the same. Maybe they get it in some years, but DSP is ATM really worse than in Ableton. On https://www.admiralbumblebee.com/music/ ... eview.html it is rated similar, although I had this impression, before I found this review.

For me the most important aspect is inspiration.
In terms completeness, I could agree, that Live has an advantage because of M4L. But inspiration is more important for me.
In terms of quality I don’t see any problem there. I come from a time even big studios would not have a dozen different compressors, they used their ears to get a sound… The tools in Bitwig do their job clean and fine. If you need a special coloring there is no other choice than getting either 3rd party plugins or analog outboard gear…

Btw. for about two decades I did not use any 3rd party plugins and worked solely in Max/MSP as tool for electronic live music. I am not sure if one could call it a DAW, though I implemented some kind of multitrack recorder within. But a timeline workflow was always a pain, but as improviser the need for timed events was rarely there. And even M4L could not convince me to jump on Live…
Since I have my LinnStrument, I do need MPE synths. Bitwig gave me both, the instruments and inspiration and a timeline.
All this is highly about personal tastes and workflows…
We are spoiled with so many options. And if you ask a more realistic topic question: if you would only be allowed to use free plugins in addition to the stock plugins, the advantages in terms of completeness of Live simply vanish… There is a new free plugin called Plug Data, which wraps Pure Data (the open source variant of Max/MSP) into a VST…

[EnGee]

Disagree, Reason 12 has a ton of instruments and FX all top notch. you have Reason lite or whatever, not the same. There are 18 included instruments, maybe 5 of them are generic stock plug ins, most are super useful unique tools. The question isn't about CP or support. I would rate my DAW of choice as far better than Cubase or Reason if that was the case. It's a simple one time call and response, not a dongle or whatever PACE level thing Steinberg introduce. Seriously pot calling the kettle black here.

I had Reason 12 (standard) and sold it (after unnecessary notice from the support). So, I'm talking about this version
Have they added the other synths and instruments to version 12 that it shows here?
https://www.reasonstudios.com/en/reason ... ts-effects

These are good indeed but still, the workflow is the worst if you want to make a full song! The sequencing is acceptable but I take any of the 4 I have above it! So, after some time, it really feels tiring keep switching between three sections that are not flexible to dock around.

Let's say that it is subjective and Reason synths/effects/workflow are all fantastic! Why don't you consider the support, protection and overall policy? The question is about sticking to one DAW. So, why I would stick to a DAW with a shit support, protection and policy?!! This is as important as synths and effects (not that I can't live without )

DP has top notch FX and sub par instruments, if I were to use your logic I would choose it based on the FX alone and ignore the mediocre instruments. Reason IMO suffers in UX and the sequencer department, but the FX and instruments are top notch. I never use it as a DAW, just as a VST rack instrument, and it's great.

I haven't tried DP because I heard it is not that great on Windows. I might give it a go when I get a Mac. I heard great things about its workflow and sequencing. Anyway, yes, you can choose it if you are using it more than others and feel comfortable to its company and its support! It might lack something, but nothing is perfect. There is always something missing! But support and respect can't be one of them (at least for me!).

In terms of integrated systems, Logic has everyone beat if you hate plug ins and programming your own plug ins like in Bitwig and Live, simply because they stole Alchemy, and the AI drum stuff is 100% unique at this point.

Apple bought Logic and Alchemy. They didn't steal them!

A handful of useful instruments in Cubase doesn't compare. Like I said I use DP11, which has only one complex instrument, Mx4, but that's it really, besides bare bones stuff, so I'm not basing my choices off of the DAW I use.

But Retrologue, Padshop, Trip and Flux are really fine instruments! I would use them gladly in my projects. Also there are tons of "basic" pianos and GM instruments in Halion Sonic SE. Some of them are usable to me! It is like having an old Yamaha keyboard from the 90's Put the drums of GA SE + the very good effects in Cubase and I can get a satisfied piece of music This plus the comfort in using Cubase made me chose it.

Anyway, in the end, no one is buying a DAW and prohibit him/herself from using 3rd party instruments and effects! But as a start, they all seem fine. In the end you are going with what you feel most comfortable with (lack of instruments I don't think it would be the main reason of abandoning your main host!).

[jamcat]

Studio One, easy. Because I could live with Ampire if I had to.

SampleOne also comes with a huge, comprehensive sample library.

You also get all of the usual effects and dynamics processors which are as good as anything.

[machinesworking]

Let's say that it is subjective and Reason synths/effects/workflow are all fantastic! Why don't you consider the support, protection and overall policy? The question is about sticking to one DAW. So, why I would stick to a DAW with a shit support, protection and policy?!! This is as important as synths and effects (not that I can't live without

Because that's not the question, we're talking about which DAWs native first party devices are the most complete. I mean it really can't be more simple of a question. Otherwise again I would just name the DAW I use.

This is an entirely different question, Ableton's support is the best, but I would still say Logic is the most complete in terms of included instruments, unless you're a tinkerer, then Max4Live is going to make Live the one.

Apple bought Logic and Alchemy. They didn't steal them!

Sure, but you can no longer get updates to Alchemy, and a recent update to Mojave, an older Mac OS, killed Alchemy on my system. Apple blatantly bought Alchemy to drive Logic sales without regard to Alchemy customers. It's capitalism, it is what it is, but stand with my Windows Camel users on this one, if they want to call it theft I'm gonna agree. It might be legal but it ain't pretty.

(lack of instruments I don't think it would be the main reason of abandoning your main host!).

That again isn't in line at all with this mental game here, it again is what is the most complete set of native devices in a DAW? the only real players here are obvious: Logic, Live Suite, Bitwig Studio and Reason. The rest are all lacking compared. I can't deny the horribleness of Reasons support, I literally jumped from 2.5 to 12, didn't use it for the last 15 years, and only use it as a Rack in DP etc. but there's never been any denying the value of the included plug ins in Reason.

Now some dork is going to say "Reaper cuz it's customizable bro!"

[dellboy]

Because that's not the question, we're talking about which DAWs native first party devices are the most complete. I mean it really can't be more simple of a question. Otherwise again I would just name the DAW I use.

I do not see the question that way, I see it the same as Engee. The totality of the package.

[pixel85]

Oh, and in no way shape or form should Cubase be beating Reason in this poll, that's just people who love Cubase. Reason is a solid contender for the number one spot really. The included content has always been it's strongest point.

IMO it's just people who love and use Cubase. My main DAW is DP, but in no way are the instruments anything to write home about, the FX are great, but it's nowhere near Logic, Live, Reason and Bitwig.

Content is nothing without proper DAW that can utilize those: audio/midi/arrangement tools. For me every DAW besides Cubase and Logic is lacking in midi features, not to mention keyboard shortcuts customization/macros.
I would even take Cubase with just effects and 1 Retrologue over the arrangement window in Reason which for me is PITA to use.

[SamDi]

For me the most important aspect is inspiration.

In terms completeness, I could agree, that Live has an advantage because of M4L. But inspiration is more important for me.

What me inspires most, are really cool sounds. There is for me a clear winner: FL Studio.
Don't know why it is so seldom mentioned here, because in terms of completeness, sounds, play-factor it's clearly one of the best. No matter which synths you take from there, even the old, not so cool ones: most of the presets there do make to want you play around with them.

The same with Gadget from Korg, if you ever had the joy to play around with it. I mean - it's just a toy, but each sound sounds as it if it were ready for production and is some source of inspiration.

By far not the same in Bitwig. (IMO Ableton is somewhere in the middle)

..(OK, after some thinking about it, all DAWs are in the middle, which makes them "good" and FL Studio maybe extraordinary superb in that area )

On the other side, I TBH do not really get, why for many of you, this modulation stuff in BW is so important. I mean it is nice - sure. But most modulation I can do in a synth plugin ITB, so why I should need to modulate from the DAW? And from Ableton you can modulate also from outside - OK, not polyphonic and not so streamlined, but it works. So for me it's not the ultimate killer feature. Don't know which extra qualitities it really then brings to your music.

Maybe it is, because in the Bitwig bubble there is a heap of niche-nerdies, who should rather think about getting some Euro rack modules, instead of agonizing in endless DAW discussions

In terms of quality I don’t see any problem there. I come from a time even big studios would not have a dozen different compressors, they used their ears to get a sound… The tools in Bitwig do their job clean and fine. If you need a special coloring there is no other choice than getting either 3rd party plugins or analog outboard gear…

Why? Ableton has The Glue, Cytomic modelled filters, so should be possible to get some coloring there

There is a new free plugin called Plug Data, which wraps Pure Data (the open source variant of Max/MSP) into a VST…

I'm not a Max/MSP power user as you, but I am pretty shure, that PD relates to Max/DSP, as GIMP to Photoshop, Blender to 3ds Max, LibreOffice to MS Office, etc. etc.

[ramseysounds]

Easy. Cubase. All other DAWs and their inbuilt instruments and FX are rubbish.

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

I’d need a DAW, which can make probality based stuff, because I make autodrummers or semi-random effects. Reason’s modular environment + some well chosen REs offer me the lot. I wonder how many DAWs can manage that?

I know Bitwig has a grid but are there tools for probability based stuff among it?

Logic Pro has Scriptor, which actually is a fine tool, but not more apart from that.

What about the others? I have not been into other DAWs for 6 years, so I wouldn’t know.

[whyterabbyt]

Apple blatantly bought Alchemy to drive Logic sales

Nope; they blatantly bought Camel Audio to get their hands on CA's resynthesis algorithms.

[whyterabbyt]

I'm not a Max/MSP power user as you, but I am pretty shure, that PD relates to Max/DSP, as GIMP to Photoshop, Blender to 3ds Max, LibreOffice to MS Office, etc. etc.

(1) It was MAX/MSP. Now its just called MAX, but MSP was originally an add-on/extension which did audio ; it stands for MAX Signal Processing. Or perhaps, it also stands for Miller Smith Puckette, after the guy who actually developed MAX.
(2) Miller Smith Puckette also developed Pure Data (PD). And MSP was subsequently derived from his work on PD.

edit : and if the 'Blender to 3DS Max' were true, Ableton/C74 should be =very= worried, given the rate at which I currently hear professional animators and modellers talk about switching to Blender. Meanwhile I literally havent heard anyone talk about switching to 3DSMax in 15 years.

[XorXisT]

A year ago would be Live, but Logic Pro is giving me more love & happiness than Live this days.

Not dumping Live anytime soon tho.

[antic604]

...On the other side, I TBH do not really get, why for many of you, this modulation stuff in BW is so important. I mean it is nice - sure. But most modulation I can do in a synth plugin ITB, so why I should need to modulate from the DAW? And from Ableton you can modulate also from outside - OK, not polyphonic and not so streamlined, but it works. So for me it's not the ultimate killer feature. Don't know which extra qualitities it really then brings to your music...

That's like me asking someone why they have 5 guitars - they all do the same thing and sound alike surely?

I guess the appreciation of modulators (and clip launcher, and Poly/FX Grid, and all of the rendom/generative devices) really depends on the type of music someone creates and their process / workflow. For the end user it probably doesn't matter and definitely isn't audible whether someone used Bitwig's modulator, LFO built-in into VSTs or even "traditional" automation. But for the artist themselves it might be a huge difference, fuelling inspiration and leading to completely different results. For example notice how in many Bitwig YT videos, as soon as someone starts assigning modulator to something they'll usually scroll through the whole devices chain - note FX, instrument(s), audio FX - and will apply a bit here, a bit there and so on. Then - informed by those choices - decide to maybe split the signal somewhere, or add parallel processing, or a selector, etc. It's very organic and completely different from "contained" workflow that you'd have with regular, separate VSTs. But obviously it's not applicable to every type of music and not to everyone's process.