ROLI's writing on the wall happened

[Ploki]

Lumi isn’t 5D - and I actually wanted backlit because it’s easier to play live and also looks way cooler

[BONES]

Lumi is 4D, so for 50% of the price you get 80% of the functionality. But it sounded like you were more concerned with how it looked than what it did because I can think of plenty of things I'd like them to improve before they started fiddling with colours. e.g. It looks like the new one will still have huge bezels outside of the keywaves, so it will be just as big and bulky as the old one, which has to be the biggest 25 key controller ever made.

Dog knows when or if this will ever see the light of day here, given that after two years or so, I still can't buy a Lumi Keys in Australia, not even on line from Roli's own website. They still refuse to sell them outside of particular markets. So they can go and get f**ked as far as I'm concerned, I've got all the Roli stuff I need.

[machinesworking]

Has nothing to do with narrow mindedness. It's branding, their brand is all over the place now.

How do you figure that? There is no Roli branding on the Lumi line. None. It's a separate brand with separate marketing.

roli.com right now, not any noticeable separate brand.
"View our products, not brands.

It's patently obvious Roli started off with this Apple branding routine

Obvious to who? Not to me. They are a company like any other, no more like Apple than like Microsoft or Ford. They have a company and, within that, three brands - Seaboard, Blocks and Lumi - each aimed at a different segment of the market but all with plenty of cross-over. The Roli brand has no power in the Lumi market, so why use it? This is especially true given the way people around here view Lumi. Using the Roli brand would have diluted it even further.

Again no noticeable separation. You probably received some product advertisement stating as such, but right now, there's just a swath of product..

They aren't doing well, this is laid out plainly for all to see. So arguing in defense of how they're operating is sort of pointless

Unless you're a shareholder it's pointless anyway and certainly not something I care even a little bit about, beyond their ability to keep innovating and delivering desirable products. And I don't care much about that, really, either.

You don't care so much you're defending some abstract concept about Roli not having a unified branding, right.

One obvious way to make it work is to focus on a target audience, they aren't doing that, and IMO it's a bad move.

But that's what they did in the beginning and that turned out so well that the one and only product they have discontinued is the flagship product of that strategy. Of course, their target audience is clearly keyboard players and those who aspire to be keyboard players, which seems like a fairly targeted portfolio to me. More targeted than, say, Apple or Microsoft or Ford.

Sure I'll give you that, I just don't buy the wide stretch they pulled with the Lumi VS the Roli line. It's just sloppy, you probably disagree, but like you've pointed out, the Lumi isn't necessarily a beginners line, it's a real instrument, but the original marketing was all "my first keyboard".

So for you their branding is still working. I just don't know if that's going to play out for everyone, that's all.

No, what's working is the appeal of individual products. They make products I find very useful for what I do. That they just happen to be from the same company means nothing to me, beyond their integration with one another. If the Blocks system was open to 3rd party developers, I'd be just as likely to buy a 3rd party product. In fact, I have installed and use third party apps in my Lightpad Blocks. Brands only matter to Mac (l)users, not to rational people.

You're the one buying into the Blocks System™ then making some half assed attempt at a mac sheeple comments. Do you really think the Lumi is so much more cohesive? that's totally a closed system Apple branding approach. You've entered the Roli reality distortion field.

[BONES]

Has nothing to do with narrow mindedness. It's branding, their brand is all over the place now.

How do you figure that? There is no Roli branding on the Lumi line. None. It's a separate brand with separate marketing.

roli.com right now, not any noticeable separate brand.
"View our products, not brands.

Maybe there but not in a shop, which is probably how they sell most of their stuff.

You probably received some product advertisement stating as such, but right now, there's just a swath of product..

So what's the alternative, just have one product and convince people that's the one they need? That would be like Apple, for sure.

You don't care so much you're defending some abstract concept about Roli not having a unified branding, right.

This is where you're stupid human brains always fall down. I'm only defending reality because, as you'll have seen in a later post, Roli can go f**k themselves for all I care so I am not going to defend "them".

Sure I'll give you that, I just don't buy the wide stretch they pulled with the Lumi VS the Roli line.

You have to assume they know their customers and their market better than we do. You can be certain they pay people to do market research, if for no other reason than to impress their investors, so why you would think you know better than they do beggars belief.

the original marketing was all "my first keyboard".

Given that it does less than their existing products, don't you think it could have damaged the brand if they'd called it a "Seaboard Lumi" or "Lumi Block"? To me, their marketing strategy is obvious and makes perfect sense. It's about growing their user base, not siphoning their existing user base dry.

You're the one buying into the Blocks System™

Not "buying into" but making good use of. I bought my Seaboard Block because it's a Seaboard, not because it's a Block.

Do you really think the Lumi is so much more cohesive?

Given that it's a single hardware product, it's hard to see it as anything but cohesive, isn't it?

that's totally a closed system Apple branding approach.

Except that it's not at all. It's a MIDI controller, no more beholden to Roli than a KeyStep is to Arturia. If they were copying Apple, they would have used a proprietary connector, not USB Type C, and they'd have an app store for the apps, so they could take 30%, instead of letting devs sell direct to customers, who can side-load the apps themselves.

[Ploki]

Your version of reality anyway.
I’m not sure why you’re so confident in your objectivity - esp regarding subjective topics.

(Actually i am, but its not a psychology board)

[machinesworking]

Your version of reality anyway.
I’m not sure why you’re so confident in your objectivity - esp regarding subjective topics.

(Actually i am, but its not a psychology board)

Bones is alright, if you accept that his tendency is to argue, and not take the name calling personally. "Idiots" as another way of saying I love you.
The Nietzsche approach to forum chat, conversations with a hammer!

[Amberience]

It just keeps coming back! Make it stop lord! Make it stop!

[Ou_Tis]

It just keeps coming back! Make it stop lord! Make it stop!

Don't worry, Bones will be your psychiatrist....

Which reminds me I forgot to mention---Dystopian Futures (new Equator2 expansion) sounds great:

[BONES]

Some very nice things in there, for sure, but I'm not sure how Midnight Sun passes as dystopian in any way. Equator has some really good patches, probably a better hit rate than any other synth I own, yet I haven't thought about it in ages..

I’m not sure why you’re so confident in your objectivity - esp regarding subjective topics.

What's subjective about Roli's branding, it is there for all to see.

[machinesworking]

Some very nice things in there, for sure, but I'm not sure how Midnight Sun passes as dystopian in any way. Equator has some really good patches, probably a better hit rate than any other synth I own, yet I haven't thought about it in ages..

I’m not sure why you’re so confident in your objectivity - esp regarding subjective topics.

What's subjective about Roli's branding, it is there for all to see.

It's subjective on whether it's effective, if they could be doing it better or worse etc. For instance any opinion about a companies branding that didn't totally tank or become the unrestrained leader in it's field, is just an opinion, opinions are subjective by nature.

[BONES]

So yours was an opinion, then, and thoroughly subjective but mine was not. I simply pointed out errors in fact that you had made. I have no idea where Roli's marketing is and isn't effective because I don't know what their strategy is and how they execute it, nor do I know anything about the sales. What I can say is that there is not a whole lot of their stuff available on eBay, which tends to indicate to me that most people who buy their stuff hang onto it. Or maybe no-one ever bought any in the first place, which seems unlikely as they have been out of stock of most things for a year or more.

I got my 6th Lightpad today, woo-hoo!

[machinesworking]

So yours was an opinion, then, and thoroughly subjective but mine was not. I simply pointed out errors in fact that you had made. I have no idea where Roli's marketing is and isn't effective because I don't know what their strategy is and how they execute it, nor do I know anything about the sales. What I can say is that there is not a whole lot of their stuff available on eBay, which tends to indicate to me that most people who buy their stuff hang onto it. Or maybe no-one ever bought any in the first place, which seems unlikely as they have been out of stock of most things for a year or more.

I got my 6th Lightpad today, woo-hoo!

That's some weird logic, they went out of stock for multiple reasons, good or bad. Scarcity drives sales.

My opinion is their branding has been weird ever since the introduction of Lumi. You can of course argue against it, but your opinions come from a like of their products, and come out in the subjective conclusions you're drawing.

Honestly as a company I hope they do well. At the moment I have a Seaboard Block, Cypher 2, Equator 2, Strobe 2. I debate selling them, not because they aren't good products, but because they're excess on my system, and Equator 2 calls back to roli.com every month to license it, my least favorite CP method.
Mostly though I bought them and a Linnstrument to shoot out which I liked better etc. and for me the Linnstrument won.

[BONES]

You may be incapable of being objective, clearly demonstrated, but it is not something I have the slightest problem with. I did an image search for a Lumi box today and it has zero Roli branding on it. Interestingly, though, I also read the quick start guide for the Lightpad I just acquired and it contains the following quote -

"Music is the universal human language.
It's a language that everyone understands, but
very few people can speak.

It's time to change that."

To me, this makes it quite clear that the founders of Roli have always been interested in bringing the power to make music to everyone. So whilst it may not be clear how a Seaboard or Blocks achieve that, perhaps they were stepping stone along the way to Lumi, who knows? But, as I've said from the start, their strategy to me is completely obvious and the marketing I have seen has been completely consistent. Can you pint to any example of anyone other than yourself being confused by any of it? I can't even see where there is room for misinterpretation. I reckon my dear old mum wouldn't have a problem getting her head around it if she was still around and she couldn't work a TV remote.

[Ploki]

I’m not sure why you’re so confident in your objectivity - esp regarding subjective topics.

What's subjective about Roli's branding, it is there for all to see.

Your perspective on it is subjective.

Objective

Code: Select all

(of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
Contrasted with subjective

You may be incapable of being objective, clearly demonstrated, but it is not something I have the slightest problem with.

...some lumi banter...

Lumi is a separate brand,
however it's also not when its on ROLI page.
https://roli.com/products/blocks/lumi-k ... io-edition

when on playlumi.com, it's not BLOCKS (although it is), and when on ROLI page, it's BLOCKS!

that's the objectivity of it. same product marketed concurrently completely differently.

Is this confusing? I don't know. I don't care

[Echoes in the Attic]

You may be incapable of being objective, clearly demonstrated, but it is not something I have the slightest problem with. I did an image search for a Lumi box today and it has zero Roli branding on it. Interestingly, though, I also read the quick start guide for the Lightpad I just acquired and it contains the following quote -

"Music is the universal human language.
It's a language that everyone understands, but
very few people can speak.

It's time to change that."

To me, this makes it quite clear that the founders of Roli have always been interested in bringing the power to make music to everyone. So whilst it may not be clear how a Seaboard or Blocks achieve that, perhaps they were stepping stone along the way to Lumi, who knows? But, as I've said from the start, their strategy to me is completely obvious and the marketing I have seen has been completely consistent. Can you pint to any example of anyone other than yourself being confused by any of it? I can't even see where there is room for misinterpretation. I reckon my dear old mum wouldn't have a problem getting her head around it if she was still around and she couldn't work a TV remote.

I've followed Roli since they first demo'd the original seaboard. This was a niche, and quite expensive product. Several years later they made seaboards more affordable when they created the rise line of seaboards. At this point though they were still niche and still fairly expensive compared to budget midi controllers. It wasn't until they created the blocks that they started to focus on a wider audience (more of fun tool, geared towards iOS as much as computers, smaller size has some disadvantages for serious music creation, but is fun), and the with Lumi they really went harder in this direction from a more traditional keyboard feel, and more towards learning for beginners. So it was a gradual progression. And no there is nothing confusing about it, it was just a shift in focus.

I'm glad they aren't abandoning the rise though. I also thought it might be useful for them to change the shape somewhat to be more like the seaboard blocks, and it looks like they have made adjustments in that direction. I would be very interested to see how these new ones feel.