If you had to use only two DAWs (third party VSTs allowed) what would they be?

[kritikon]

Next thread:

If you could only use 19 DAWs, and you could only use 14 of them with third-party plugins, four of them have to have an “a” in the name, one of them has to have a guy named Al on their development team, five of them have to support VST3, six of them have to be discontinued, and one of them has to be an anagram of “senora”, which 19 would you choose?

I'm pretty sure I heard that Al left to start up his own company...

[dlandis]

EnergyXT3 and Reaper/LMMS. Been using LMMS more than Reaper lately but Reaper is a great DAW!

I've used Reaper, but what is EnergyXT3 and LMMS?

[Halonmusic]

EnergyXT3 and Reaper/LMMS. Been using LMMS more than Reaper lately but Reaper is a great DAW!

I've used Reaper, but what is EnergyXT3 and LMMS?

EnergyXT is an old DAW no longer updated or supported:
https://www.energy-xt.com/

LMMS is an open source DAW which is actively being updated and supported:
https://lmms.io/

[EnGee]

The Yamaha WX5 is a descendent of the WX7 which in turn was of the lineage begun by Bill Bernardi's Lyricon: an electronic wind instrument. I owned a Lyricon II back in the (pre-MIDI) day, followed by a retrofitted MIDI Wind Driver (essentially a Lyricon II body attached to a controller console), then a WX7, finally two WX5's (hopefully, soon to be three of these as they are discontinued and, as far as this writer is concerned, irreplaceable; this last until the MIDI 2.0 spec becomes feasible in a wind controller.) I've attached pictures of a Lyricon II and WX5. The WX5 is not MPE compatible, per se. In a sense, it's probably better to think of it as "MPE Agnostic" as the entire MPE paradigm has little to no overlap with the WX5. As a monophonic wind controller, it uses CC02 for the bulk of its unique expression with pitch bend primarily at the reed. I also have it attached to both two Yamaha MCS2's (MIDI Control Stations) and a Roland PK5A MIDI foot pedal for key switching. So, it's really very expressive. It's got about a 7.5 octave range. Most acoustic sounds do not sound natural with that range, but a number synth lead sounds do.

MPE is fun, but, so far, I've not used it in a composition yet. I know that I will and I've got something of a new (quasi)jazz project in the works with a friend who has moved quite far away, hence, we'll be doing a ton of file sharing. He's a guitarist and I am thinking about asking a drummer/computer programmer friend with whom I was in another jazz/jam group and recorded if he would be interested in joining us (logistics still being very much up in the air). I say this because I'm hoping that between this group and my own stranger writing, I may be able to use MPE in a formal sense. My instruments are two Seaboard blocks, a Lightpad Block, and a Touch Block. They're all magnetically attached to form one unit. Some soft synths seems to respond better than others, the best so far for me are Abyss and Equator 2. Both of these work pretty seamlessly.

As I'm still learning Bitwig, I've not used any Groove functions yet (though it would probably be there that I would use them); I know that there are options in that direction, but I've not really checked them out, but soon...

As far as Notion is concerned, you may wish you didn't sell it (and I'm really sorry to say this): Studio One 5 interfaces with it beautifully and it extends the capabilities of the DAW's options pretty far, i.e., not everything in Notion is duplicated in Studio One by a long shot. Can you get back your license? My guess is that you may end up missing it pretty soon. But then again, I don't know how you're using it. Just a thought offered, in the spirit of FWIW.

Thanks for the info and pictures They seem really nice! Pity they won't produce such midi controllers as I think they are very useful for wind instruments players. Good luck with your future band

Bitwig doesn't have Grooves (as far as I know), but Ableton Live does. Anyway, yesterday I spent it exploring Bitwig and learning more about the MPE implementation. It seems the ideal DAW for MPE users! It has many features and the MPE implementation is very neat indeed! Unfortunately, I don't think an MPE controller would benefit me that much! I might use the MPE features inside Bitwig however.

I can cross-grade from S1 Pro to Notion I think. It is not a problem getting Notion again. I also have the iOS version on my iPad when I need it. But I don't use score editor for composing. I just use it for learning Piano (that I sold about one year ago!). Anyway, I can use my midi controllers to continue the lessons, they are still for beginner anyway

[dlandis]

EnergyXT3 and Reaper/LMMS. Been using LMMS more than Reaper lately but Reaper is a great DAW!

I've used Reaper, but what is EnergyXT3 and LMMS?

EnergyXT is an old DAW no longer updated or supported:
https://www.energy-xt.com/

LMMS is an open source DAW which is actively being updated and supported:
https://lmms.io/

Thanks for the info. These are totally new to me.

[dlandis]

The Yamaha WX5 is a descendent of the WX7 which in turn was of the lineage begun by Bill Bernardi's Lyricon: an electronic wind instrument. I owned a Lyricon II back in the (pre-MIDI) day, followed by a retrofitted MIDI Wind Driver (essentially a Lyricon II body attached to a controller console), then a WX7, finally two WX5's (hopefully, soon to be three of these as they are discontinued and, as far as this writer is concerned, irreplaceable; this last until the MIDI 2.0 spec becomes feasible in a wind controller.) I've attached pictures of a Lyricon II and WX5. The WX5 is not MPE compatible, per se. In a sense, it's probably better to think of it as "MPE Agnostic" as the entire MPE paradigm has little to no overlap with the WX5. As a monophonic wind controller, it uses CC02 for the bulk of its unique expression with pitch bend primarily at the reed. I also have it attached to both two Yamaha MCS2's (MIDI Control Stations) and a Roland PK5A MIDI foot pedal for key switching. So, it's really very expressive. It's got about a 7.5 octave range. Most acoustic sounds do not sound natural with that range, but a number synth lead sounds do.

MPE is fun, but, so far, I've not used it in a composition yet. I know that I will and I've got something of a new (quasi)jazz project in the works with a friend who has moved quite far away, hence, we'll be doing a ton of file sharing. He's a guitarist and I am thinking about asking a drummer/computer programmer friend with whom I was in another jazz/jam group and recorded if he would be interested in joining us (logistics still being very much up in the air). I say this because I'm hoping that between this group and my own stranger writing, I may be able to use MPE in a formal sense. My instruments are two Seaboard blocks, a Lightpad Block, and a Touch Block. They're all magnetically attached to form one unit. Some soft synths seems to respond better than others, the best so far for me are Abyss and Equator 2. Both of these work pretty seamlessly.

As I'm still learning Bitwig, I've not used any Groove functions yet (though it would probably be there that I would use them); I know that there are options in that direction, but I've not really checked them out, but soon...

As far as Notion is concerned, you may wish you didn't sell it (and I'm really sorry to say this): Studio One 5 interfaces with it beautifully and it extends the capabilities of the DAW's options pretty far, i.e., not everything in Notion is duplicated in Studio One by a long shot. Can you get back your license? My guess is that you may end up missing it pretty soon. But then again, I don't know how you're using it. Just a thought offered, in the spirit of FWIW.

Thanks for the info and pictures They seem really nice! Pity they won't produce such midi controllers as I think they are very useful for wind instruments players. Good luck with your future band

Bitwig doesn't have Grooves (as far as I know), but Ableton Live does. Anyway, yesterday I spent it exploring Bitwig and learning more about the MPE implementation. It seems the ideal DAW for MPE users! It has many features and the MPE implementation is very neat indeed! Unfortunately, I don't think an MPE controller would benefit me that much! I might use the MPE features inside Bitwig however.

I can cross-grade from S1 Pro to Notion I think. It is not a problem getting Notion again. I also have the iOS version on my iPad when I need it. But I don't use score editor for composing. I just use it for learning Piano (that I sold about one year ago!). Anyway, I can use my midi controllers to continue the lessons, they are still for beginner anyway

Groove in Bitwig seems to be like "swing" but perhaps more customizable. I don't think Bitwig will "determine" a groove from a performance, but I could be wrong.

Roland now makes something somewhat similar to the WX5, but it looks cheaper, costs more, and includes a synthesizer built in. Roland seems bent on including sounds with just about everything they do and for me, that's something I'd rather not pay for. Almost all of their drum controllers have sounds as well. I wish they'd something that is just a controller. Akai has made a wind controller called a EWI (Electronic Wind Instrument) for years, but it's a very different design than the Lyricon/WX5 idea. I'll include a picture. Michael Brecker had a very customized EWI he bought from Nyles Steiner (the designer of the original unit that AKAI bought for their production). There was also an EVI (Electronic Valve Instrument) Nyles designed. I'll attach pictures of these. Top to bottom, Roland AE30, Steiner EVI, Akai EWI, Brecker and the customized Steiner EWI:

[EnGee]

Roland now makes something somewhat similar to the WX5, but it looks cheaper, costs more, and includes a synthesizer built in. Roland seems bent on including sounds with just about everything they do and for me, that's something I'd rather not pay for. Almost all of their drum controllers have sounds as well. I wish they'd something that is just a controller. Akai has made a wind controller called a EWI (Electronic Wind Instrument) for years, but it's a very different design than the Lyricon/WX5 idea. I'll include a picture. Michael Brecker had a very customized EWI he bought from Nyles Steiner (the designer of the original unit that AKAI bought for their production). There was also an EVI (Electronic Valve Instrument) Nyles designed. I'll attach pictures of these. Top to bottom, Roland AE30, Steiner EVI, Akai EWI, Brecker and the customized Steiner EWI:

Interesting! And how do you connect and configure them in the DAW? Wirelessly? What about the latency or jitter in midi data?

Have you checked note expressions in Cubase? Retrologue parameters can be used in note expressions, but for most instruments (like some saxophones in Halion SE) few parameters can be used (depends on developer I think). Anyway, it adds some realistic and interesting feeling and character to the sound. I like it a lot and I'm intended to use it. It seems to me similar to MPE! Anyway I think I prefer playing normal Midi keyboard using mod wheel and then add the expressions missing in the editor later. I don't think I would like playing with the Roli controller as I watched reviews not encouraging (easy to make mistakes while playing).

[dlandis]

Roland now makes something somewhat similar to the WX5, but it looks cheaper, costs more, and includes a synthesizer built in. Roland seems bent on including sounds with just about everything they do and for me, that's something I'd rather not pay for. Almost all of their drum controllers have sounds as well. I wish they'd something that is just a controller. Akai has made a wind controller called a EWI (Electronic Wind Instrument) for years, but it's a very different design than the Lyricon/WX5 idea. I'll include a picture. Michael Brecker had a very customized EWI he bought from Nyles Steiner (the designer of the original unit that AKAI bought for their production). There was also an EVI (Electronic Valve Instrument) Nyles designed. I'll attach pictures of these. Top to bottom, Roland AE30, Steiner EVI, Akai EWI, Brecker and the customized Steiner EWI:

Interesting! And how do you connect and configure them in the DAW? Wirelessly? What about the latency or jitter in midi data?

Have you checked note expressions in Cubase? Retrologue parameters can be used in note expressions, but for most instruments (like some saxophones in Halion SE) few parameters can be used (depends on developer I think). Anyway, it adds some realistic and interesting feeling and character to the sound. I like it a lot and I'm intended to use it. It seems to me similar to MPE! Anyway I think I prefer playing normal Midi keyboard using mod wheel and then add the expressions missing in the editor later. I don't think I would like playing with the Roli controller as I watched reviews not encouraging (easy to make mistakes while playing).

I use a standard MIDI cable connection (because the WX5 only offers that as it's old). I know that some use a wireless outboard system for MIDI, but as I don't take the WX5 out of the studio, it would be kind of unnecessary. At one point, I did play out with it occasionally and I used its predecessor the WX7 quite a bit with a group I played with doing jazz clubs in NYC. It was fun and a good foil to my tenor and soprano saxes and flute. There is really virtually no latency as it's entirely MIDI. When I played it out, I usually ran it through an Oberheim Matrix 6R and/or a Yamaha TX81Z. The MIDI data at the time for a sequencer was very thick, but now it's no sweat; it hasn't been an issue since who knows when.

I don't have Cubase, so I can't look at note expressions. (Sorry!) What you describe sounds pretty cool. The ROLI Seaboard Block has mini keys. I'm kind of okay with that, but many are not. I find it helpful NOT to approach it like a piano style keyboard. It really isn't built for that.

[Halonmusic]

EnergyXT3 and Reaper/LMMS. Been using LMMS more than Reaper lately but Reaper is a great DAW!

I've used Reaper, but what is EnergyXT3 and LMMS?

EnergyXT is an old DAW no longer updated or supported:
https://www.energy-xt.com/

LMMS is an open source DAW which is actively being updated and supported:
https://lmms.io/

Thanks for the info. These are totally new to me.

np

[EnGee]

I use a standard MIDI cable connection (because the WX5 only offers thatas it's old). I know that some use a wireless outboard system for MIDI, but as I don't take the WX5 out of the studio, it would be kind of unnecessary. At one point, I did play out with it occasionally and I used its predecessor the WX7 quite a bit with a group I played with doing jazz clubs in NYC. It was fun and a good foil to my tenor and soprano saxes and flute. There is really virtually no latency as it's entirely MIDI. When I played it out, I usually ran it through an Oberheim Matrix 6R and/or a Yamaha TX81Z. The MIDI data at the time for a sequencer was very thick, but now it's no sweat; it hasn't been an issue since who knows when.

Oh I see. Do you use it with Sax or flute software (libraries in Kontakt for example)? Or do you find it not up to par with real instruments?

I don't have Cubase, so I can't look at note expressions. (Sorry!) What you describe sounds pretty cool. The ROLI Seaboard Block has mini keys. I'm kind of okay with that, but many are not. I find it helpful NOT to approach it like a piano style keyboard. It really isn't built for that.

I understand. Yes, it might be better to consider it as its own instrument and not a kind of keys.

I think I mostly like Cubase implementation of the note expression the most. Here is a good video about it (if you have the time):

[dlandis]

Oh I see. Do you use it with Sax or flute software (libraries in Kontakt for example)? Or do you find it not up to par with real instruments?

I don't have Cubase, so I can't look at note expressions. (Sorry!) What you describe sounds pretty cool. The ROLI Seaboard Block has mini keys. I'm kind of okay with that, but many are not. I find it helpful NOT to approach it like a piano style keyboard. It really isn't built for that.

I understand. Yes, it might be better to consider it as its own instrument and not a kind of keys.

I think I mostly like Cubase implementation of the note expression the most. Here is a good video about it (if you have the time):

Generally, when I need a sax or flute, I need a baritone sax, bass flute, alto flute, or piccolo. I play tenor, soprano, and alto saxes, and concert (regular, if you will) flute. While I may use models of these for composition purposes, with the exception of the instruments I've mentioned that I don't own, any saxes or concert flute parts are real instruments that I record on the final mix. Having said that, yes, the WX5 can control a VST to create a thoroughly convincing sax or flute. It also does brass, lead guitar, bass, orchestral strings, and synth leads. The realism is as contingent on the plug-in as controller, however.

Thanks for the video on Cubase! I'll watch it soon.

[EnGee]

Generally, when I need a sax or flute, I need a baritone sax, bass flute, alto flute, or piccolo. I play tenor, soprano, and alto saxes, and concert (regular, if you will) flute. While I may use models of these for composition purposes, with the exception of the instruments I've mentioned that I don't own, any saxes or concert flute parts are real instruments that I record on the final mix. Having said that, yes, the WX5 can control a VST to create a thoroughly convincing sax or flute. It also does brass, lead guitar, bass, orchestral strings, and synth leads. The realism is as contingent on the plug-in as controller, however.

Thank you for the info and the explanation

Thanks for the video on Cubase! I'll watch it soon.

This is another "small" video about the score editor and the enhancements they did in version 11 (really nice! I especially like the immediate switching between the piano roll and score editor):

[Pilonsky]

I’ve only used logic. The main things I need in a daw are a good sequencer and editor, and a good step sequencer and editor. Also a good one shot single instrument sampler with pitch and amp envelope. The new Logic Pro has quick sampler, step sequencer, and the old piano editor. It’s wonderful. That’s all I need. As far as effects processors the main ones are eq, compression, saturation, filters, and a touch of reverb and delay when needed. For these I think third party sounds better than logic. If Logic wasn’t available I would be looking into reason as I know many of the things that are new to logic have been in reason the whole time!

[legendCNCD]

Ableton Live + Cubase - actually originally used Reason + Cubase SX having Reason channels on SX mixer with VSTs was nice.

or

Ableton Live + Studio One - but I have not used S1 ever, so not really sure, but have heard good things.

[dlandis]

I’ve only used logic. The main things I need in a daw are a good sequencer and editor, and a good step sequencer and editor. Also a good one shot single instrument sampler with pitch and amp envelope. The new Logic Pro has quick sampler, step sequencer, and the old piano editor. It’s wonderful. That’s all I need. As far as effects processors the main ones are eq, compression, saturation, filters, and a touch of reverb and delay when needed. For these I think third party sounds better than logic. If Logic wasn’t available I would be looking into reason as I know many of the things that are new to logic have been in reason the whole time!

This sounds great. I think there is a level that those of us who are using and/or learning two DAWs are slightly envious of those who are perfectly happy and, indeed, exhilarated working in only one app.

When I was working on my M.M., we were required to use Reason (as a DAW), Live, and Digital Performer in our work. At home, I was using Cakewalk and Digital Performer was very similar in its workflow. Live was very awkward to my way of thinking (I think this was because, as an undergrad, I had a wonderful prof who refused to allow me the luxury of repeat signs; everything had to be through-composed with no verbatim use of material without at least some variation. It was a challenging, but thoroughly advantageous paradigm under which to compose.). Reason was fine for me as a ReWire device, but I chafed terribly under the use of the sequencer. So, when I finished my Master's, I happily resorted back to Cakewalk as my sole DAW with the addition of Reason as a ReWire option.

Then came 2018.

Gibson, of course, decided in November of 2018 (if memory serves) to "off" Cakewalk. Some rode out the wave, so to speak, to end up with essentially the same DAW owned and promoted by BandLab. There hasn't been "much" development there, but then again, many felt that the tools offered by Cakewalk at the time of its near demise at the hands of Gibson, were adequate for their compositional needs. Mostly, from what I've seen, BandLab has been ironing out bugs and offering some improvements. Those who currently use Cakewalk as their primary DAW seem happy.

Many, however, jumped ship and started considering other DAWs. If I'm correct, many of us had been with Cakewalk for most of its existence to that point. (Personally, I'd used Cakewalk since version 3 for DOS: about 30 years. [Yes, this makes me officially "old", but I'm a bit confused as to how to factor in the relative youth of my transplanted heart to my chronological age. ]) I ended up trying five DAWs: Reaper, Mixbus, Waveform, Bitwig, and Studio One. I lost Reaper almost immediately as it was unstable on my computer and Mixbus soon followed as it did not seem to offer the editing features I desired. Also, neither had a workflow that felt comfortable. The last three have all stayed. I don't use Waveform that much, but despite its almost "steam-punk," quirky feel (really, the only thing to which I can compare it), it can be really fun to use. But Bitwig and Studio One represent my "creative" and "workhorse" impulses respectively (not that I use these terms exclusively). Bitwig does feel alien (and I'm still learning it; it is pretty deep), but in a really invigorating way: I enjoy working things out in Bitwig and it forces me to reconsider previously inculcated paradigms (often imparted via the aforementioned professor). Studio One, however, is pretty much smooth as silk; if I need to get something done quickly, I go directly to Studio One. It's pretty great from that angle.

I've not really tried either Cubase or Logic. I can't say why I never got around to Cubase; maybe it's being as old as Cakewalk had something to do with that, but I don't honestly know. I'm on a PC, so Logic was never a consideration, though once, way back when, I did try an early copy when it was on a PC. It, like Reaper, was pretty unstable on my computer at the time. I'm absolutely sure it has changed much since the point I've tried it.

Offered in the spirit of FWIW. None of what I've shared raises to the level of religious commitment for me. None of it is intended to offend or excoriate anyone, so please do not take it that way.