Using chords derived from non-natural major/minor keys

[samesung]

I was going through a massive amount of youtube videos and nobody seems to mention those chords like minor major 7th or major 7th #5 (1st and 3rd chords in melodic minor scale) - when do you use them, in what function, what scale and/or mode you play over them? Do you use them as subs for some other chords?

[Erisian]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_major_seventh_chord

[Pashkuli]

Use when it is suitable. Do not expect anyone to tell you what your chords should be.
It is art, just get the basics in terms of technique and styles... the rest is inspiration and... gift.

[jancivil]

In my own music, I don't care for writing functional harmony or even constructing chords as blocks much at all. In the linear modi operandi I proceed from, I do find things like a minor/major 7 (w maybe an add2) a very attractive sonority. I'm a colorist, and I'm freer than to need to consider scale-per-chord or prescriptive theoretical precepts really. but, let's characterize it like plateaus or levels, it's a kind of tense 'home', or a second niveau (kinda sorta subdominant zone, but could well rest there and be as final as I deem it in a context).
You won't find it too frequently in tonal function like that, but it's 2021, the revolt happened over a century ago now.

[jancivil]

if you want a use case, for the III7 there, the second chord of the intro to Stairway to Heaven.
G# C E B


wrote lower case iii, wrong

[egbert]

I was going through a massive amount of youtube videos and nobody seems to mention those chords like minor major 7th or major 7th #5 (1st and 3rd chords in melodic minor scale) - when do you use them, in what function, what scale and/or mode you play over them? Do you use them as subs for some other chords?

That chord Jan mentions (mi ma7 add 9) is there in the opening guitar chords of Cry Me a River as played by Barney Kessel et al. On guitar you can play a ma7#5 voicing (built on the mi 3rd) up near the 12th fret over the root as a deep bass note like Barney does.


That mima7 chord is a tonic chord in a minor key. The ascending melodic minor, of which it is a scale tone chord, gets played a lot in modern jazz - Michael Brecker for example played it quite a lot over a standard minor 7 (so he plays B natural on the ascending run over Cmi7) It sounds good in his tenor sax solos but might not go down so well in another genre. Soloists and composers choose these colours in part to break out of the rut of endless recycling of diatonic sounds.

[jancivil]

In that video it's Dennis Budimir on guitar tho
Kessel on the record, sure

my father was a huge Julie London fan, my sister is named after her even
so this is the kind of harmony I heard all thru childhood.


those two chords, like any i and III or I and iii are pretty nigh interchangable of course

[egbert]

In that video it's Dennis Budimir on guitar tho
Kessel on the record, sure

my father was a huge Julie London fan, my sister is named after her even
so this is the kind of harmony I heard all thru childhood.


those two chords, like any i and III or I and iii are pretty nigh interchangable of course

Yes - youtube had that video with Julie London's performance which sounded very close - I didn't see a link with the original - could have been one further down in the search somewhere. In any case, the guitarist seemed to be following Kessel pretty closely - and what a devastating, spare arrangement that tune used. That stripped down guitar part is studied to this day as an exemplar of fingerstyle jazz for students.

[Musical Gym]

my father was a huge Julie London fan..

I attended a songwriter's workshop with Arthur Hamilton. Can't say that I recall what he taught me.

[samesung]

I was going through a massive amount of youtube videos and nobody seems to mention those chords like minor major 7th or major 7th #5 (1st and 3rd chords in melodic minor scale) - when do you use them, in what function, what scale and/or mode you play over them? Do you use them as subs for some other chords?

That chord Jan mentions (mi ma7 add 9) is there in the opening guitar chords of Cry Me a River as played by Barney Kessel et al. On guitar you can play a ma7#5 voicing (built on the mi 3rd) up near the 12th fret over the root as a deep bass note like Barney does.


That mima7 chord is a tonic chord in a minor key. The ascending melodic minor, of which it is a scale tone chord, gets played a lot in modern jazz - Michael Brecker for example played it quite a lot over a standard minor 7 (so he plays B natural on the ascending run over Cmi7) It sounds good in his tenor sax solos but might not go down so well in another genre. Soloists and composers choose these colours in part to break out of the rut of endless recycling of diatonic sounds.

Thank you for a nice example. I agree with you and the others, those chords can get you out of a rut or allow you to paint your music in different hues and nuances. However, I found it's easier for me to get a sense of structure and function behind it first so it's easier to "break the rules". It's something like painting, any kid with some crayons can make an abstract masterpiece, but I feel it's easier if I have a sense of intention and direction. I absolutely do have to put in more work and experiement more, but I always like to hear what the traditional approach is, given it probably offers solutions that have a proven track record. However, it remains that, in most reel books at least, I've rarely seen chords being used that are not derived from the natural minor/major scale, that's where my curiosity's coming from.

And sometimes, the simpler the chord, the more freedom it offers. I recently watched a yt clip about the influence of indian music on the Beatles. The idea of one note drone that offers a tonal center, root, home, around which everything else evolves and resolves was a fascinanting one. It allows you to break all the rules and still have a home to return to. I felt I understood that concept more clearly, perhaps because I was thinking about it in terms of melodic and modal, and not harmonic progression and its functions. Not saying it's the right approach, but that's how I interpreted it.

[egbert]

@samesung - thanks for this thread. It has got me thinking again about some musical stuff other than what I have been working on more recently - anything can become a rut if you let it.

And good point about the Indian influence on the Beatles. My thoughts go straight to amazing Tomorrow Never Knows, the tape loops and the incantations from the Book of The Dead. They were really taking flight back then, making such a diversity of music on Revolver which seems to have been shaded by their later work but is brimming with creativity. TNK ends the album but was the first tune they recorded for the Revolver sessions.

[samesung]

@samesung - thanks for this thread. It has got me thinking again about some musical stuff other than what I have been working on more recently - anything can become a rut if you let it.

And good point about the Indian influence on the Beatles. My thoughts go straight to amazing Tomorrow Never Knows, the tape loops and the incantations from the Book of The Dead. They were really taking flight back then, making such a diversity of music on Revolver which seems to have been shaded by their later work but is brimming with creativity. TNK ends the album but was the first tune they recorded for the Revolver sessions.

Thank you for engaging in the discussion! I guess falling into a rut can happen to anyone. If it's work, maybe the clients ask for one and the same thing over again. Maybe the rut makes people feel safe and confident in what they do. But it's nice to break the mold every now and then.

TNK is a fantastic piece of music, and now that you mention the book of the dead, I didn't even know those incantations are on it! I must admit that at my younger age I didn't understand what the fuss was all about about the Beatles. I got a taste of some of their most radio-friendly and popular tunes, thought it was regular jingly-jangly pop-rock of the 60s and not much else. I just recently began discovering how wrong I was. Now it feels like they did everything, their songs contain cadences no other songs do, the way they mixed their albums is crazy, the amount of experimentation with song structures, with equipment... Much of what came after really stood on the shoulders of the giant that was them.

[jancivil]

However, I found it's easier for me to get a sense of structure and function behind it first so it's easier to "break the rules".

Yeah, you want things modeled. I had two very intensive years of part-writing in the chromatic ways.
You don't get the m^7 all that much outside of jazz. The arrangement of that Julie London number is exemplary for the kind of color you may find in minor keys. In rock that style comes out as the Stairway intro basically.

[samesung]

However, I found it's easier for me to get a sense of structure and function behind it first so it's easier to "break the rules".

Yeah, you want things modeled. I had two very intensive years of part-writing in the chromatic ways.
You don't get the m^7 all that much outside of jazz. The arrangement of that Julie London number is exemplary for the kind of color you may find in minor keys. In rock that style comes out as the Stairway intro basically.

Yeah, starting with models is easier, then you take it from there. Also, I haven't got any classical musical traning and I had been neglecting ear training for a long time so I didn't develop it as much as I should have and I rely on musical theory knowledge to get around and complement what I hear. I like jazz a lot, as well as classical music and different ethnic styles, but I agree about using those chords in rock .

[Tonio_]

Well it depends on what you're actually playing. Like for example, in jazz, the minor add69 and the minor major 7 are often used as the tonic chords since they have a more minor sound than the vanilla minor 7 chord. It's really all about the feel of whatever you're writing/playing. If a chord with the diatonic extensions doesn't convey the right feel, then just use something else that does!