Voxengo - protection policy?????

[Polster]

As usual. A discussion on software piracy that concludes with the responsibility landing on the developer.

As always, both sides of the argument (or so we are led to believe) leading to a conclusion where - the developer needs to try harder. And the crackers – well, they are just very naughty boys aren’t they.

In Britain, a few years ago, it used to be popular to ram-raid various shops (maybe it still is). In a ram-raid, some thieves reverse a car into a shop window in the middle of the night and then steal the contents of the shop. Imagine if, after the thieves left, the shop was wide open and a few DVD players and TVs were left behind. You’re coming back from the pub with your mates and the street is quiet, you see the DVDs on display – free for the taking. Ask yourself honestly, how many of you expect that at least one of your mates would take advantage and ‘nick’ a DVD? You’ve been drinking right – you’re all up for it.

O.K. you get the point? It’s legitimate for a normally honest person to steal a DVD player from an already smashed up shop because, “Hey officer, the window was gone, I didn’t smash the window and, come on, which sucker is going to pass up the opportunity of a free DVD player. The f**ing shop keeper should have had better security and then ‘is window wouldn’t have got smashed and I wouldn’t have been tempted”.

No, unfortunately, it is not legitimate and your mate is as much a thief as the ram-raiders – possibly worse.

Fortunately for the shop keeper, he has insurance. It covers his losses but the premium goes up and now he needs to charge a bit more for his goods – so the honest folk will pay – but that’s O.K. we don’t mind that do we?

Unfortunately, a software developer cannot obtain insurance coverage over the products that have been stolen by the opportunists that take advantage of freely available cracks. But then you would argue that it’s all good publicity (like the FL story) and those that are serious will buy anyway. Actually, this is not true. Those that are serious, can steal as well, given the right opportunity.

So, the developer, unfortunately for the honest folk, has to assume that his products will be cracked and stolen. The copy protection is less of a deterrent but more of a statement that “there is something useful and valuable inside this product”. The better the copy protection, the more valuable the contents.

There is no blame to be accounted here. Just decide if you want to be honest or not. You either pay for things you want to use or you use a crack – but stop whining on about how much you hate this kind of copy protection or that kind of copy protection and how the developers make you feel like thieves – it’s pathetic. The lock on the door of my car doesn’t immediately make me feel like a thief – and I do understand why it is there. If copy protection makes you feel like a thief then get some therapy.

As for the Developer thinking of ways to entice customers to buy their products - what a load of . Typical, isn't it enough already that they made their f**king product available to you in the first place? A prime example of the lack of value that most people associate with software products - hey, it's only software right.

You suggest developers should spend the bulk of their effort on new ways to entice their customers. Then you'll accuse the developers of exploiting their customers.

Hey, don't get me wrong here, maybe some developers are out to screw you as well - but I guess it's a pretty labor intensive way to make a quick buck.

If nobody used cracks, then perhaps the products would be less expensive - think about that.

[Cyprus]

Polster, you are a moron.

Did it at all sound like I was justifying piracy? God dang. The fact is, piracy exists, and will always exist. So companies can either try to figure out other ways to make the sale, do nothing and lose money, or continue to fight a losing battle against pirates themselves.

In no way was I justifying piracy, quite the contrary, I was just offering some intelligent advice.

[Polster]

Polster, you are a moron.

Just because I completely disagree with your banal point of view - I'm a moron?

You weren't justifying piracy, you were doing worse than that, you were ignoring your own responsibility, as an honest member of society, and putting the responsibility for dealing with piracy on the actual victims - the developers!

Countries developed armies in order to protect their ships against pirates. They didn't expect the freight ships to have to defend themselves in order for an economy to flourish.

You want to continue to be a customer? You had better do something about piracy yourself.

You didn't say anything remotely new or intelligent about this subject.

[munchkin]

Polster, you are a moron.

Just because I completely disagree with your banal point of view - I'm a moron?

You weren't justifying piracy, you were doing worse than that, you were ignoring your own responsibility, as an honest member of society, and putting the responsibility for dealing with piracy on the actual victims - the developers!

Countries developed armies in order to protect their ships against pirates. They didn't expect the freight ships to have to defend themselves in order for an economy to flourish.

You want to continue to be a customer? You had better do something about piracy yourself.

You didn't say anything remotely new or intelligent about this subject.

You're not giving another view point. You are moralising and harranging us to do as you wish. The tone of your posts are extremely judgemental. I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to switch off to everything you have to say on this issue regardless of whether I agree with piracy or not. You won't even accept that people can be against piracy but do not think that copy protection works.

I think trying to force your point of view down our throats is a bigger crime than piracy. And you are guilty of that. So until you debate in a more fraternal way then why should we listen to your sermons?

[Polster]

You're not giving another view point. You are moralising and harranging us to do as you wish. The tone of your posts are extremely judgemental. I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to switch off to everything you have to say on this issue regardless of whether I agree with piracy or not. You won't even accept that people can be against piracy but do not think that copy protection works.

I think trying to force your point of view down our throats is a bigger crime than piracy. And you are guilty of that. So until you debate in a more fraternal way then why should we listen to your sermons?

You think so highly of yourself. What makes you think I am remotely interested for you to do anything I wish? Are you the center of the Universe?

My point of view is equivalent to piracy by your standards. Again, just me saying something you don't like to hear is WORSE than theft. Where is your sense of proportion?

If you think I'm judgemental on this, then maybe I connected with some truths here.

Switching off because you don't like what you hear - no comment.....

In final analysis, you want me to behave so that you don't get mad. Sorry, I'm not responsible for the way you react to what you read.

[pitchdrifter]

Polster the world isn't black and white. And extremist views about problems don't make anyone a noble person, no matter which side that person is on. That doesn't only go for software piracy, as you probably understand.

That said, I assume I own more value in audio software and sample libraries than you ever will. So does a good bunch of people on this board. So please stop preaching to the converted.

And maybe you'll understand the concern people who run into copy protection issues have - naturally thats people who buy the products, because otherwise they'd not be having trouble with the protection because its not there anymore once a product is cracked.

[Green Red Brownell]

Oy, this discussion is useless. Every discussion of piracy degenerates this way.

Just buy Aleksey's plugs, and be happy, OK??

[HanafiH]

I think moralising about piracy is about as useful as King Canute telling the sea not to come in. It exists, people do it, and all developers in all markets need to find something that limits the damage piracy causes to their businesses.

It appears to me that market success is uncorrelated to the strength of copy protection. It also seems to me that despite the prevelance of cracks some people at least actually do buy software.

I'm more interested in why the right thing happens than how wrong the wrong thing is, because then vendors can actually do something about improving the situation, other than getting sucked into snake oil remedies.

[Cyprus]

You weren't justifying piracy, you were doing worse than that, you were ignoring your own responsibility, as an honest member of society, and putting the responsibility for dealing with piracy on the actual victims - the developers!

Are you even reading any of these posts? As an honest member of society my responsibility is to NOT PIRATE, which I do for ethical reasons. I have no control over what other people do, I can tell them not to do it, but I can't force to stop pirating. Even if I turned in 10 piraters to the police, there are millions more out there. The fact is, it's a losing battle.

The designers don't have an ethical responsibility, but it's in their best interest to do more to persuade those that would pirate to buy their product for the sake of profits. If you can't understand that that's your problem.

[Sascha Franck]

I'm more interested in why the right thing happens than how wrong the wrong thing is, because then vendors can actually do something about improving the situation, other than getting sucked into snake oil remedies.

Amen!

[dburgan]

The designers don't have an ethical responsibility, but it's in their best interest to do more to persuade those that would pirate to buy their product for the sake of profits.

Personally, I think trying to persuade those who would pirate to buy instead is also a completely losing battle. Yes, there are those few who actually turn music into a business and so feel some kind of compelling need to 'go legit'. Most who pirate will continue to do so, regardless of how much incentive the developer tries to give them to shell out money.

So ... fighting piracy is a lost cause, and incenting pirates to buy is also a lost cause. Seems to me that maybe software itself is a lost cause ... ?

Who will write the software in the future, I wonder?

[tetraplan]

Oy, this discussion is useless. Every discussion of piracy degenerates this way.

Just buy Aleksey's plugs, and be happy, OK??

Just repeating this because people aren't listening.

Groet, Erik

[pitchdrifter]

You probably think 'pirates' have eye patches, wooden legs and a hook for their right hands, don't you?

And its not about persuading 'pirates' to buy software or begging them. There is no such thing as a 'pirate'.
There is however 'good service' and there is 'bad service'. And its also plain stupid to think the customer is at a developer's mercy and should be deeply thankful they sell a product. This is not the 1900s, this is the 21st century. If a developer or anyone offering a service treats customers poorly, there is plenty of competition to go to instead. So if a developer offers something that helps me do my work better or faster, I'll gladly support that developer in return. However there are a couple megalomaniacs out there who don't realize they aren't the only ones on the market. So I go for a competing product where the developer is friendly, offering support and actually tries to help a customer achieve their goals.
What do people do who do music as their hobby after having bought a product, cannot afford getting a similar product from a competitor because their hobby isn't self-financing? Does someone who then grabs something that works for them, because they're out of money and simply cannot buy the product because they're out of resources make them a child-eating pirate?
Its not as black and white as 'pirates versus legit people'. There are legit people who might use a cracked product even though they own the product legally, because e.g. they cannot get a dongle to work (e.g. certain VIA chipsets). There are legit people who try a product in the cracked version, because that product has no demo available, or the demo restrictions are too severe for them, then they buy the product, or they don't because they find out they have no use for it.

Do you think someone parking in a no-parking zone is evil? Yes it could be a careless person parking right in the middle of a fire engine access way, and something could happen that delays the access to the fire engine. But it also could be someone who simply doesn't realize where he's parking or what consequences that might have. Telling them about it usually makes someone go 'oh, sorry, didn't see that, let me park someplace else, brb'. Of course theres also a certain percentage who really doesn't give a damn, but the vast majority does give a damn.
It'd be really helpful not to alienate people because of what certain market giants try make you believe, which is partly the case with the music industry and mp3s. The RIAA for instance which is a conglomerate comprised of the biggest music labels in the world, acting entirely in their commercial interest and having a huge influence on the legislatives in western countries, exceeds the mandate to reduce copying of music by *far* and tries to improve the market situation for traditional labels in very questionable ways. Their big excuse is 'music piracy damaging artists'. Fact however is that they were way too late to realize the business potential they have over the internet. They attempted outlawing numerous legal online labels and music sites like mp3.com, they tried to outlaw the mp3 codec. And nowadays they go against kids who downloaded illegal mp3s, finging ridiculous fees. Yet they do very little to go against commercial piracy, which is, sales of counterfeit products, which happens with software and music alike, especially in China, but more and more also in western countries (see ebay and the 'cheap oem software' mails you get every day).

There is software and music pirates, real ones, but they're not the ones using the stuff, they're the ones who make money out of distributing counterfeit copies of music and software. Thats where the real piracy problem lies, because its profitable for them, and because it has huge dimensions. And the people buying these things most of the time don't know their money actually goes elsewhere than the actual developer of the product.

Treat people with a little common courtesy please, and apply some common sense before painting everything black and white. Alienating and pointing fingers won't change anything to the better, quite the opposite.

Markus

[Polster]

Treat people with a little common courtesy please, and apply some common sense before painting everything black and white. Alienating and pointing fingers won't change anything to the better, quite the opposite.

Markus

If you mean me - I didn't call anyone a moron yet.

What kind of common courtesy is this that you are talking about?

[Klemperer]

...but stop whining on about how much you hate this kind of copy protection or that kind of copy protection and how the developers make you feel like thieves – it’s pathetic. The lock on the door of my car doesn’t immediately make me feel like a thief – and I do understand why it is there. If copy protection makes you feel like a thief then get some therapy.

Agreeing with most of what you write, I don't think you've got a point here when talking about people who actually don't steal products, buy challenge-response-things and have to go begging for new keys afterwards.
It's utter nonsense to tell others to get some therapy. Problem is definitely NOT that people felt like thieves, but that latest copy-protections are ridiculous, don't make sense and are BAD for people who BUY AND HAVE NOT THE BEST PC-S. (in my case that is because I buy a lot of fine software). Yes I know people who use Steinberg and NI-cracks, so do many. I don't use them. They laugh about people who buy and get treated the way "come beg for a new number". There IS a difference between chall-resp and my car-door, is it?

I wrote to NI 2 days ago because I honestly want to buy REAKTOR. But not with challenge-response. Well actually I never thought I'd get an answer. I got one though, they told me they'd take a look at my wishes. To be honest, I'd like to pay a slightly higher price to get a serial or would like to get at least a dongle instead of chall-resp (indeed, many dongles are ridiculous too).

I gladly own Voxformer from Voxengo, will buy other plugs in the future and am extreeeeemely glad about Alexej's way of treating his customers. Like people of Linplug, rgcaudio, Ohmforce, ConcreteFX and many others he simply knows what is BAD protection policy. So maybe cracking will never end, most probably so. But we can't do anything better than BUY, and in case some 5000 people would write to NI instead of some like me - maybe something would change.

I agree to all the other things you write about, and have to admit if latest copy-protection-methods WOULD be better (I doubt it, people I knew used Steinberg- and NI-things, not Voxengo and other first-class-products nearer to KVR-forums) then I would be wrong. I had to get a better PC then and would stop buying as many products as I do as a not-pro-musician. But, for sure, that's not a problem for many, only for some around here.

Cheers. Many say these discussions are senseless. They are not, simply because of producers like Voxengo and because of users like us. (Now that cries for another AMEN, Sascha, and you'd be right. Anyone who could tell me good or bad things about Reaktor, by the way, a pm would be very much appreciated on that subject).

Anyway, NI answered, and another answer will follow, so write to them too . The "door is open"-argument is fine, Polster, (though many round here like me seem to be angels, he he, not using the cracks), but maybe NI will be aware that indeed the door is open, glass smashed, no matter what protection used.