Frustrated with lack of progress/improvement

[imrae]

It's worth noting that, as is happening here, people often get useful feedback in Music Cafe by posting their track and references. The question "how do I make my track sound more like this?" is one lots of people can bring useful perspectives to.

[Rastkovic]

I've done that both here and elsewhere, but I'll share some things in this thread then, here's the two most recent tracks I've finished along with a few decent-sounding drafts I've made since:

Do you make your sounds from scratch, or do you use presets?

Modern Trance presets are always a bit too much of everything in my opinion.

For classic Trance sound I would disable the unison effect, at least I would use it only on a few elements....

[chk071]

I've done that both here and elsewhere, but I'll share some things in this thread then, here's the two most recent tracks I've finished along with a few decent-sounding drafts I've made since:

Do you make your sounds from scratch, or do you use presets?

Modern Trance presets are always a bit too much of everything in my opinion.

For classic Trance sound I would disable the unison effect, at least I would use it only on a few elements....

I was taught some time ago here that that is not the case, and, even back in the days, people made good use of unison.

Dunno if it's true. I also always found that that oldschool sound is not as thick and layered as nowadays productions. It's either due to lack of layering, or lack of unison.

I'd also make sure to always use some noise with supersaws etc. It really adds a nice touch to everything, and might even mimic the aliasing of old VA hardware.

Anayway. all theoretic really, as I don't really make such music.

[TW1306]

Do you make your sounds from scratch, or do you use presets?

A mix of made-from-scratch sounds and edited presets, though usually the scratch-made ones are me fiddling with parameters instead of specifically trying to create that particular sound.

[Rastkovic]

Do you make your sounds from scratch, or do you use presets?

A mix of made-from-scratch sounds and edited presets, though usually the scratch-made ones are me fiddling with parameters instead of specifically trying to create that particular sound.

Okay, that could be a problem. Like it or not, electronic music is a lot about sound and how it is produced. Musically, the late 90s early 2000s are not much different to todays Trance music. It's just a detail, but a 4x unison lead just sounds different, than a 16x unison lead.

I've done that both here and elsewhere, but I'll share some things in this thread then, here's the two most recent tracks I've finished along with a few decent-sounding drafts I've made since:

Do you make your sounds from scratch, or do you use presets?

Modern Trance presets are always a bit too much of everything in my opinion.

For classic Trance sound I would disable the unison effect, at least I would use it only on a few elements....

I was taught some time ago here that that is not the case, and, even back in the days, people made good use of unison.

Dunno if it's true. I also always found that that oldschool sound is not as thick and layered as nowadays productions. It's either due to lack of layering, or lack of unison.

It depends on the time period and tracks. Some use it more, some less, some not at all....

[UltimateOutsider]

I've got well over a thousand project files in Reason at this point, from 8-bar loops to practically full tracks, I can assure you I've been doing a lot, no offense.

You completely missed the point, no offense.

You said you've only FINISHED one song. You only get better by completing projects, comparing the final result to your original expectations and to reference material, and correcting your mistakes in future projects. A thousand false starts don't count.

[mgw38]

As somebody who has been in education for decades I can tell you that the only thing that is critically important for achieving success (other than luck in terms of being at the right place at the right time), is persistence and passion. Yes, there is such a thing as talent, but that only allows you to get "there" faster. I have seen people with limited or no talent being successful just because they never let go of their dream. And I have seen really talented people getting nowhere because they could not focus.

There is this somewhat overused rule of thumb of 10.000 hours of practice needed to become an expert. While I would not take the exact number too seriously, I found it does provide a useful estimate. And 10.000 hours is in the vicinity of 5 years of full time effort. So unless you are really talented, have a lot of luck, or spend every waking minute on this, you should not expect to get to a mastery level in less than 10 years.

[TW1306]

You said you've only FINISHED one song. You only get better by completing projects, comparing the final result to your original expectations and to reference material, and correcting your mistakes in future projects. A thousand false starts don't count.

I've finished a lot more than one, I've just not uploaded them publicly. And correcting the mistakes is the issue I'm having in the first place, I simply don't know how to.

[benzene]

I'm wondering if you could ask yourself what you like so much about the reference tracks, and how they seem to be doing that?

I'm listening to the first reference track - "Memnon - Rescue", and also to your own tracks to see if I can find any contrasts. This is all just IMO.

On "Memnon", it's really surprising how progressive and complex it is in its arrangement. It's always evolving from one place to the next. I started taking notes with timestamps, and gave up as I have a pageful of new elements arising, and it's only halfway through.

Memnon has a bread-and-butter kick/bass thing, but that's just a bedrock. What's making it for me (apart from the very strong sound design work) is the fact it's always going from one place to the next (along with subtle hints of those transitions).

Often in Memnon, there's a sound which happens only once. One sound will go to leave space for another sound. There are some long sounds in there, less consistent repeats. Sometimes a sound comes in only once in a while (e.g. we hear one synth play one note at 26 seconds and never hear it again until 4:08 when it takes centre stage). There are clever contrasts: a glassy arp pattern at 3:12 with an irregular length and stereo movement - this complements the saw lead pattern with a regular length, mostly centre.

Listening to your track 'Believe in Minds', you've got some interesting elements in the intro, that rhythmic loop, the processed vocals. A nice riser sound. Going on further there's a strong focus on the upfront dance elements - the hardstyle bass, the 303 sounds. The sounds go together well, and it sounds convincing in that style. The arrangement is solid, to me.

In contrast I hear Memnon as focusing more on melodic, 'spacey' and progressive ideas. It still has the dance element, but it doesn't get too wild there, stays fairly conservative.

Perhaps look at your music from this point of view? Your production sounds good to my ears. Just in my opinion, you seem to be inspired by music which has particular finesse in the arrangement. Maybe worth paying attention to how you could use those elements in your own work?

[Uncle E]

Most likely I'm missing some key knowledge or skill(s) that would help.

The tracks you referenced are more epic/cinematic. The meat of your tracks is good but music from that era is defined by the breakdowns.

Mix-wise, try balancing your dums/percussion lower, cutting hihat frequencies above 10K, and adding either subs or 100Hz to your basses. I guess you thinned out your basses to keep them from competing with your kicks? That's not really necessary when the basses are off-beat, just side-chain compress them from the kicks.

Overall, you're very, very close. Your music is great, your mixes are great, and I enjoyed listening to your examples.

[Uncle E]

On "Memnon", it's really surprising how progressive and complex it is in its arrangement. It's always evolving from one place to the next. I started taking notes with timestamps, and gave up as I have a pageful of new elements arising, and it's only halfway through.

Great analysis! I think that will help more people than just the OP (myself included).

Boom Jinx had a track where he dropped a 2 second sitar part right in the middle and then never played it again. I always loved that.

[TW1306]

I'm wondering if you could ask yourself what you like so much about the reference tracks, and how they seem to be doing that?

On "Memnon", it's really surprising how progressive and complex it is in its arrangement. It's always evolving from one place to the next.

Thank you very much for the analysis; I definitely agree that achieving that level of complexity/progression has been a big sticking point for me. I think part of the problem is that my knowledge of synthesis + how to make specific sounds etc is fairly limited already, and so that limits my creativity in terms of filling out a more complex arrangement, if that makes sense - especially in terms of pads and FX.

(also for the record, with 'Believe In Minds' I was intentionally experimenting with a hard trance style - which tends to be less 'complex' than more trance-oriented tracks - but the examples I linked (especially Rescue) are more typical of what I'd like to be making.)

[TW1306]

Mix-wise, try balancing your dums/percussion lower, cutting hihat frequencies above 10K, and adding either subs or 100Hz to your basses. I guess you thinned out your basses to keep them from competing with your kicks? That's not really necessary when the basses are off-beat, just side-chain compress them from the kicks.

Overall, you're very, very close. Your music is great, your mixes are great, and I enjoyed listening to your examples.

Yeah, getting the right level of bass has always been tricky, I tended to stay away from sidechaining as I associated it more with the way it's used in modern house and such, but now that you mention it I can see how it'd help the mix.
Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed the tracks

[Uncle E]

Yeah, getting the right level of bass has always been tricky, I tended to stay away from sidechaining as I associated it more with the way it's used in modern house and such, but now that you mention it I can see how it'd help the mix.

Set it so it only reacts to the initial transient of the kick. That's short enough that you can't hear it. It won't give you that pumping house sound. Side-chaining a multi-compressor would allow you to compress it even harder without being noticeable.

[empphryio]

The kvr osc was mentioned but I guess ignored? It's stickied in the instruments section. I think it can potentially really help with sound design.