Is Studio 1 the only realistic alternative to Cubase ?

[syntonica]

Cubase drops VST2 for MAC due to a decision made by Apple. Cubase on Windows will still have VST2 support.

And what decision would that be?

To move to a different architecture again, which would require steinberg to devote unnecessarily high amounts of resources to port over and maintain equivalent stability for a legacy component. Steinberg has not been maintaining VST2 for quite a while. I think they're ready to move on. Even on Windows, the updates for Padshop, Retrologue, Groove Agent, etc. remove VST2 plug-ins from the installer.

They are not willing to maintain that, moving forwards. I can't blame them, either.

Unnecessarily high amounts of resources?

Yes, flipping that switch from Intel to ARM can be so taxing... I hope they had an ambulance on stand-by...

This is SB trying to shift blame for their decision to kill VST2 themselves since VST3 has been an utter failure at the task. There are plenty of plugin devs that have recompiled their VST2s from Apple Silicon, along with other DAWs who have recompiled to support them.

I can tell you've never developed software.

For computationally intensive software, you can't just "flip the switch" from x86 to ARM. All that does is ensure you're going to pay even more in support costs, and develop a bad reputation as word of your incredibly buggy software port spreads across the internet like wildfire.

If that were the case, everything would have been ARM Native on Day 1. Windows on ARM would have been a smashing hit, too, as anyone with a Win32 App would have just flipped that switch and moved on. Microsoft has had ARM compilers in Visual Studio for at least 15 years, and more likely 20+ (Windows Mobile, etc.). Microsoft has generally always had production compilers available for all of the more popular industry platforms (x32/64, ARM, and others like Itanium in the past).

What you're referring to works well with hello world. It doesn't work well with software that actually has dependencies that it would need to be ported over in order to have itself ported over.

I'd be interested in seeing how other DAWs are supporting VST2, because I think the implementation details being opaque is clouding some people's view of just how complicated a task this actually is.

I am not even going to reply to this type of comment, beyond this reply. This ignorance doesn't deserve further attention.

Sciolistic much? In regards to a VST2 host, the most taxing thing it does is provide two buffer pointers and a buffer length, something the host already supplies for every other plugin format. It's the plugin that does all the hard work. But you'd know that, being a rockstar programmer, right?

So, no, in this instance, flipping a switch is all that's needed.

Thanks for playing! kthxbye...

[Super Piano Hater 64]

Plugins and hosts can take a lot of work to port from one architecture to another. That much should be obvious, just from all the software that still isn't native a year and a half into consumer availability of Apple Silicon.

However, the factors that make porting difficult do not apply to the VST2 plugin interface. It's like one file. There's no custom assembly for SIMD operations or anything like that. A number of developers got their VST2 software working on Apple Silicon just fine. There is no technical reason that prevents them from doing so.

The only thing stopping developers from releasing VST2 software for Apple Silicon is pressure from Steinberg's scary lawyers. Even Native Instruments got this treatment. Beta testers mentioned there was an Apple Silicon VST2 version of Kontakt, but it was suddenly withdrawn from the 6.7 release and then quietly evaporated.

[pdxindy]

The only thing stopping developers from releasing VST2 software for Apple Silicon is pressure from Steinberg's scary lawyers. Even Native Instruments got this treatment. Beta testers mentioned there was an Apple Silicon VST2 version of Kontakt, but it was suddenly withdrawn from the 6.7 release and then quietly evaporated.

Exactly...

[jamcat]

VST2 is dead. Time to move on.

[Super Piano Hater 64]

VST2 is dead. Time to move on.

You're not wrong. But my post (like the others above it) was not for you. There are still a lot of people who haven't followed any of the VST2/VST3 drama, and therefore don't understand what the hell is going on.

[syntonica]

VST2 is dead. Time to move on.

You're not wrong. But my post (like the others above it) was not for you. There are still a lot of people who haven't followed any of the VST2/VST3 drama, and therefore don't understand what the hell is going on.

I think "undead" is more accurate. VST2 is essentially 1500 LOC and is very simple to implement. VST3 is... uh, neither of those things. I think we'll continue to see VST2s stumbling along the moors, late at night, looking for willing hosts until SB finally yanks all the licenses. And, even then, there will still be the occasional ominous pounding at the door.

Sadly, I'm losing a number of plugins with the move to my new MBAir, mostly due to the devs no longer updating or no longer in business. Many of these plugins have no direct replacements, so I'm looking at hosts and plugins to "invest" in for the future and I'm waiting to see where everything falls before I spend another dime. I'm probably part of a sliver of percentage of customers, however, and our reticence will probably have little effect on the current market. I don't have the luxury of writing off new purchases as business expenses.

Hopefully, CLAP (or another liberally-licensed format) will grow legs as an alternative, base format so that both devs and endusers never get caught in the middle again.

[BONES]

Steinberg is in the process of a slow act of suicide. I'm just hoping SpectraLayers survives the inevitable death of Steinberg.

I don't think you have any idea how big Steinberg is. For example, they are the only DAW developer I know of with a physical support presence in Australia. i.e. When I contact Steinberg support, I get a response from someone in Melbourne. I don't have to wait until the next day, I get a response within minutes. They are owned by Yamaha and they will be around a lot longer than any of us.

I think you should give Cubase a try, it's quite popular these days and has a lot of new features.

There is nothing in Version 12 that would make me pay for an upgrade from v10. That's not surprising, it is a very mature, full-featured application but what they have put into v12 should really be a free update.

In fact, reading about the new version just makes me happier that I moved to Studio One last year.

[HREQ]

it's worth noting that Wolfgang Kundrus (the main guy who made cubase) left studio one team quite awhile ago

When I saw that, I decided not to switch. Not that cubase is getting any new amazing features lately though.

[teilo]

Steinberg is in the process of a slow act of suicide. I'm just hoping SpectraLayers survives the inevitable death of Steinberg.

I don't think you have any idea how big Steinberg is. For example, they are the only DAW developer I know of with a physical support presence in Australia. i.e. When I contact Steinberg support, I get a response from someone in Melbourne. I don't have to wait until the next day, I get a response within minutes. They are owned by Yamaha and they will be around a lot longer than any of us.

Too big to fail, eh? We'll see, I guess, but I suspect it will become primarily a Windows DAW.

[BONES]

Exactly, where 90% of the PC market is.

[pixel85]

Damn, if you're saying that Steinberg is dead, then I believe your facts! You gypsy fortune tellers are always right and only fools would ignore your facts.

[Trensharo]

Steinberg is in the process of a slow act of suicide. I'm just hoping SpectraLayers survives the inevitable death of Steinberg.

I don't think you have any idea how big Steinberg is. For example, they are the only DAW developer I know of with a physical support presence in Australia. i.e. When I contact Steinberg support, I get a response from someone in Melbourne. I don't have to wait until the next day, I get a response within minutes. They are owned by Yamaha and they will be around a lot longer than any of us.

Too big to fail, eh? We'll see, I guess, but I suspect it will become primarily a Windows DAW.

Apple breaks everything with macOS updates (remember the one that broke like 75% of plugins) and people deal with it.

Steinberg drops VST2 and they're committing suicide?

I'm starting to understand why they didn't even bother to open a discussion about this.

Also, it becoming pri.arily a PC DAW.... ehh, I think that would be wholly unexpected considering how dominant Cubase is in its primary niche, ignoring all other things.

As long as many creators believe macOS is best, it will always be there.

I can actually see Steinberg making more inroads vs Avid in those market segments. It isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Not from macOS, and certainly not from existence.

Many of these DAWs are decades old product lines. Not everything is Studio One - young missing basic features like a Video Track and 5.1 Support; which I'm sure will appear in an update as its users pretend it's delivering so much value over Cubase or whatever else is out there (and had those features 15 years ago).

[LeVzi]

VST2 is dead. Time to move on.

This is the kinda BS that really tests me.

Some VST's that are REALLY good are VST2 only , for one reason or another will never see a VST3 update. Camelspace Camelphat but to name 2, and Cthulu from Xfer CANNOT be updated to VST3 due to the MIDI issues with VST3.

So they are NOT dead at all , also bridging VST2 from 32bit to 64bit is still used, look at Genesis Pro. That will be gone too. There are plenty I still have bridged that are stable.

So VST2 is not dead, in fact it needs to be kept alive for those reasons alone. It's bloody minded of Steinberg to just disregard them and the people that pay for their software who will lose out.

Hence why I asked the question, if I want to keep a DAW up to date and using VST2 and VST3 , is Studio 1 the only viable option. Or I just simply stay with Cubase the release prior to when they outlaw VST2. Thankfully VST2 is still OK in Cubase 12.

OR as was suggested some kinda wrapper / system to load in VST2.

[gentleclockdivider]

it's worth noting that Wolfgang Kundrus (the main guy who made cubase) left studio one team quite awhile ago

When I saw that, I decided not to switch. Not that cubase is getting any new amazing features lately though.

The main guy that made cubase was Charlie Steinberg .
Kundrus was-is a great developer , but the foundation of studio one ( based on krystal audio engine ) was done Mathias Juwan ( also ex cubase ), who is still head dsp developer at presonus -hamburg .

[jamcat]

VST2 is dead. Time to move on.

This is the kinda BS that really tests me.

Some VST's that are REALLY good are VST2 only , for one reason or another will never see a VST3 update. Camelspace Camelphat but to name 2, and Cthulu from Xfer CANNOT be updated to VST3 due to the MIDI issues with VST3.

So they are NOT dead at all , also bridging VST2 from 32bit to 64bit is still used, look at Genesis Pro. That will be gone too. There are plenty I still have bridged that are stable.

So VST2 is not dead, in fact it needs to be kept alive for those reasons alone. It's bloody minded of Steinberg to just disregard them and the people that pay for their software who will lose out.

Hence why I asked the question, if I want to keep a DAW up to date and using VST2 and VST3 , is Studio 1 the only viable option. Or I just simply stay with Cubase the release prior to when they outlaw VST2. Thankfully VST2 is still OK in Cubase 12.

OR as was suggested some kinda wrapper / system to load in VST2.

You're making the same arguments as the 32-bitter clingers.

But VST2 is dead, just like 32-bit is dead. It hasn't been actively developed or maintained for 10 years. Development licenses are no longer being issued and licenses are not being extended to future platforms. It is dead.

Developers will begin phasing out VST2 support, just as they did with 32-bit. There is no reason to continue it. Because it is dead.

I recommend you find replacements for defunct plugins and abandonware. Just as you had to do for 32-bit. The sooner you end your reliance on dead-end plugins, the better.

I'm in more or less the same boat as you, so it's not as though I don't empathize. I'm just telling you for your own good, because the writing is on the wall, and has been for a long time now. You can try to stand athwart history, yelling stop, but it will only run you over. The only alternative is to hunker down in a bunker with an old Intel machine and a copy of Cubase 11, and a lifetime supply of canned beans.

I don't want to get painted into a corner with any software that might impose an expiration date on my work, so I've done what I can for some time now to cut out non-VST3 plugins, just as I did with 32-bit plugins a decade ago. But there are a few VST2 plugins that I rely on that have no replacement currently.

Parallax-Audio Virtual Sound Stage 2 and Toontrack ezplayer, in particular.
ezplayer is dead for sure, and VSS2 has all the appearance of that as well.

I'm assuming Relab Development will come out with VST3 versions, but it could be years, given the painfully slow pace of Development from Relab.)

Outside of those, I've ditched or replaced any plugins that aren't VST3. In all of those cases, it was an improvement, such as swapping Expressive E's buggy abandonware Arché instruments for SWAM.