KVR Audio

AdvancedFollower · Post by **AdvancedFollower** » Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:46 am

So imagine you're working on a track, and you have a couple of sections done - complete with some automation. Maybe you have a verse+chorus or build+drop where you automated several effects parameters and fader levels to create tension and release.

Now you decide you want to change the arrangement. Maybe you want to add a short pre-chorus, or you want to make the buildup 4 bars longer. So you grab all the MIDI and audio clips and move them to the right to make space. But now the automation no longer lines up with the song! That reverb automation you drew in just as the chorus hits now happens 4 bars before the chorus.

Now you have to "pixel hunt" for all the little dots on all the automation tracks so you can select them all. If you miss one, it will completely mess up the automation by creating a weird gap. You have to zoom in so you see all the dots, but then you have to scroll like an idiot to be able to select the entire range. Then you have to carefully nudge all the dots to the right to make sure they align (at least most DAWs support snapping of automation points these days. That was another whole world of pain.).

The only DAW I know of which solves this is FL Studio. Since automation is encapsulated in "automation clips", which are just like MIDI Clips in other DAWs, it's trivial to move them around and align them with the rest of the arrangement. They're clearly visible on the timeline (unlike the tiny dots of an automation track) and you can easily see where they start and end. Where there isn't an automation clip, the parameter resets to its default value, no need to carefully position two dots at exactly 3.188532 to make it match the initial position. They can also be easily duplicated, split, glued, deleted and reused for other parameters and colorized so you can visually keep track of what they do.
Are there any other DAWs that have a solution to this problem? How do you deal with automation in DAWs that treat it as a continuous set of points rather than clips, when you want to change the arrangement?

middle_color · Post by **middle_color** » Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:24 am

AdvancedFollower wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:46 am

Consider not moving clips. Every DAW has manipulation with time: Duplicate Time, Cut Time, Paste Time, Insert Silence. Options may name different in different DAWs.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:55 am

If automation is at the track level, dont expect it to work at the clip level.

But also RTFM, because some DAWS have that capability but its an option, eg Cakewalk ('Select Track Envelopes with Clips')

Or use a DAW which actually supports fully clip-based automation.

dionenoid · Post by **dionenoid** » Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:09 pm

In Cubase you have the option "Automation follows events". When you copy/move midi or audio its automation will follow.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:08 pm

In PT, its 'Options>Automation Follows Edit' (and its on by default).

AnX · Post by **AnX** » Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:21 pm

Orion has the option to drag events with the pattern/midi notes

vincent66 · Post by **vincent66** » Mon Mar 14, 2022 3:44 pm

In Presonus Studio One, if you use the arranger track you can do this:

Danilo Villanova · Post by **Danilo Villanova** » Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:42 pm

Reaper can move automation with items (clips) and also has automation clips like FL.

elnn · Post by **elnn** » Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:32 pm

middle_color wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:24 am
AdvancedFollower wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:46 am
Consider not moving clips. Every DAW has manipulation with time: Duplicate Time, Cut Time, Paste Time, Insert Silence. Options may name different in different DAWs.

100 %. Learn to use these.

AdvancedFollower · Post by **AdvancedFollower** » Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:00 pm

dionenoid wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:09 pm In Cubase you have the option "Automation follows events". When you copy/move midi or audio its automation will follow.

This only works if the automation is on the same track as the events you're moving.

For example if the automation is on the Bass Bus EQ, the DAW doesn't realize the bass MIDI clips are linked, even with "Automation follows events" enabled. This makes sense, because you might have several bass layers (e.g. 3 layers) all going into the same Bass Bus, so if you only moved the MIDI clip for one of the layers and left the other two layers, should the DAW move the automation or leave it?

xalama qo · Post by **xalama qo** » Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:14 pm

Select the bars containing the automation by highlighting a "loop range" in the timeline header (where the timecode numbers are), select the track with the track header. Copy/cut, paste to new position.
You might have to insert an automation point at the beginning of the bar selection so that when you paste it will paste to the start of the new bar.
Not as long-winded as you make it out to be. You seem to be overthinking/overdoing some steps.

GaryG · Post by **GaryG** » Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:59 pm

Reaper has had a "Envelope points move with media items" button on the main toolbar forever. When enabled (think it defaults to on now) you can just drag a clip about the arrangement and all the envelope points go sliding after it.

A more modern take is 'automation items', I guess another term for automation clips. You can create them, duplicate, create pooled copies etc which would be the solution to your bass layer example.

dionenoid · Post by **dionenoid** » Tue Mar 15, 2022 1:31 pm

AdvancedFollower wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:00 pm
dionenoid wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:09 pm In Cubase you have the option "Automation follows events". When you copy/move midi or audio its automation will follow.
This only works if the automation is on the same track as the events you're moving.

For example if the automation is on the Bass Bus EQ, the DAW doesn't realize the bass MIDI clips are linked, even with "Automation follows events" enabled. This makes sense, because you might have several bass layers (e.g. 3 layers) all going into the same Bass Bus, so if you only moved the MIDI clip for one of the layers and left the other two layers, should the DAW move the automation or leave it?

And that's when you use the range tools, as described by others here.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:04 pm

dionenoid wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:09 pm In Cubase you have the option "Automation follows events". When you copy/move midi or audio its automation will follow.

and, a clip is an event.

I move that kind of thing about freely, automation follows event (established in Preferences).

as to automation of vis, VE Pro provides a single map per instance which is one list in Cubendo. and it shows the actual name of the parameter. It used to be ya had to keep up with the parameter number, which meant preferably a coherent map by the numbers, now any ad hoc thing you do is no problem. So this is the host combo for extensive automation of vis and the FX on those channels.
Obviates mixing that sort of thing in Cubase entirely for me.

xbitz · Post by **xbitz** » Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:46 pm

S1, automation can be track/part (part one exists inside events like in Cubase just S1 supports patterns too) one and has its own track type which can be moved from the orig track to folder tracks (and follows it)

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... studio-one

ps. dunno other products but big +1 to Brainworx for automated params highlighting

The automation problem and which DAWs have a solution?