I'm only slightly exaggerating...
When using 3rd party (VST) plugins, Live gates all audio under -100 dB. Apparently this is by design, "to save CPU". And there's currently no way to completely turn off this gating.
Discussion here: https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=244799
Ableton Live is a 16-bit DAW
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- KVRAF
- 2315 posts since 24 Jun, 2006 from London, England
Interesting - Can also replicate here with a quiet white noise source, a couple of Utilities knocking the signal down by 70db, a pro-q3 as the 'test' VST and Span at the end.
Turning the Pro-Q 3 on (with no EQ filtering applied) will completely mute the signal, and turning it off brings the noise back again. Though my level where it starts to gate is around -120db (no idea what that would equate to bit-depth noise-floor wise - 20 bit ?)
Turning the Pro-Q 3 on (with no EQ filtering applied) will completely mute the signal, and turning it off brings the noise back again. Though my level where it starts to gate is around -120db (no idea what that would equate to bit-depth noise-floor wise - 20 bit ?)
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- KVRAF
- 2315 posts since 24 Jun, 2006 from London, England
Only if you have your speakers at crazy volume! Definitely not a problem for my (and I would say most peoples) use, interesting it's doing it all the same though (i.e. gating when a VST is on, not gating when off)
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 104 posts since 19 Jun, 2019
-100 dB in a finished song? Not likely.
-100 dB with a lot of headroom that gets amplified and compressed? Yes.
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- KVRAF
- 9571 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space
As Live can’t know if a 3rd party plugin deals correctly with denormals (which would eat CPU for nothing), its the best way to prevent lazy programmed vsts to bring the DAW to its knees…
Proper gain staging is essential anyway, there is no real drawback…
Proper gain staging is essential anyway, there is no real drawback…
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 104 posts since 19 Jun, 2019
Denormals are still a thing?
Regardless, other DAWs seem to be doing just fine without resorting to such measures.
And the drawbacks are pretty clear in some cases. As I said, you can't assume that the -100 dB processing applies to the finished product only.
You have to assume that anything can get additional processing, whether inside the same DAW or somewhere else after exporting, which can boost -100 dB signals to something audible.
Someone in the Ableton forum also mentioned extreme compression techniques ("doom compression"), which are used for creative purposes and would get impacted by this. So it's a problem that goes beyond just ensuring high fidelity.
That's why audio software usually works at "overkill" 32-bit float precision.
I think if this was discovered in some other DAW with a different reputation and a different user base, it would have been a scandal already.
Regardless, other DAWs seem to be doing just fine without resorting to such measures.
And the drawbacks are pretty clear in some cases. As I said, you can't assume that the -100 dB processing applies to the finished product only.
You have to assume that anything can get additional processing, whether inside the same DAW or somewhere else after exporting, which can boost -100 dB signals to something audible.
Someone in the Ableton forum also mentioned extreme compression techniques ("doom compression"), which are used for creative purposes and would get impacted by this. So it's a problem that goes beyond just ensuring high fidelity.
That's why audio software usually works at "overkill" 32-bit float precision.
I think if this was discovered in some other DAW with a different reputation and a different user base, it would have been a scandal already.
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- KVRAF
- 24433 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
Denormals are not really a thing anymore, especially with on-CPU handling for them (FTZ flag, etc.).Tj Shredder wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 6:12 pm As Live can’t know if a 3rd party plugin deals correctly with denormals (which would eat CPU for nothing), its the best way to prevent lazy programmed vsts to bring the DAW to its knees…
Proper gain staging is essential anyway, there is no real drawback…
This should definitely be an option and not something baked in.
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- KVRAF
- 5200 posts since 17 Aug, 2004
Well the fact that no real producer or anyone sane already complained about it should provide you with a hint or two.
But ok if you find that random person "discovering" a completely nonsense issue which never affected anyone to this date and it's all under theoretical worries - scandalous - then go for it.
This scandal IMHO has the same merit when someone discovers a "scandalous" security issue in a CPU, which can leak the data from inside of a computer. But in order to run such an exploit you need to have administrator privileges on that very same computer.
I mean come on...
Doom compression. Ok..
But ok if you find that random person "discovering" a completely nonsense issue which never affected anyone to this date and it's all under theoretical worries - scandalous - then go for it.
This scandal IMHO has the same merit when someone discovers a "scandalous" security issue in a CPU, which can leak the data from inside of a computer. But in order to run such an exploit you need to have administrator privileges on that very same computer.
I mean come on...
Doom compression. Ok..
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- KVRian
- 823 posts since 27 Aug, 2020
Ableton essentially truncating audio to 18 or 20 bit dynamic range is FAR from the kind of audio handling you would expect in a professional DAW, as in Digital Audio Workstation. I'm astonished it does that.
Okay, it's not true bit truncation, it just gates audio without introducing harsh digital crap maybe, but... does this not defeat the purpose of mixing in 32-bit floating point to begin with? Who cares about Double Precision or 32-bit floating point, 18 bit is where it's at for the most analogue experience.
At the very least, it should be optional.
Okay, it's not true bit truncation, it just gates audio without introducing harsh digital crap maybe, but... does this not defeat the purpose of mixing in 32-bit floating point to begin with? Who cares about Double Precision or 32-bit floating point, 18 bit is where it's at for the most analogue experience.
At the very least, it should be optional.
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- KVRAF
- 35677 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany
Well... that's really a lot of headroom, isn't it?
I don't know if this is really an issue, with so many chartbreaker tracks produced with Ableton. It always seem to be the hobbyists who notice and complain about stuff like this.
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- KVRian
- 823 posts since 27 Aug, 2020
It's obviously not the end of the world, but it can constitute a problem in some scenarios, especially when mixing at lower levels. Reverb tails might get trimmed here and there, some character may get lost in the process, the gating might introduce some stuttery artifacts too, who knows. It's not a producer's issue, it's predominantly an audio technician's issue.
It is probably not something significant in electronic music production, but heck, it can become quite a bit of a nuisance when dealing with some orchestral stuff where dynamic range is extremely important and stuff has much lower average levels compared to electronic productions. Admittedly, it is not very probable that folks doing processing on orchestral takes will turn to Ableton, but who knows.
If I were still using Ableton, to be on the safe side, I would make sure to mix as hot as possible without clipping, something I don't have to do in other DAWs.
The problem here is that Ableton may not spit out exactly what you're feeding it, losing you some dynamic range without asking you for your okay. From a technical standpoint, that's a flaw. People searching for fidelity and a lot of dynamic range should simply look elsewhere.
It is probably not something significant in electronic music production, but heck, it can become quite a bit of a nuisance when dealing with some orchestral stuff where dynamic range is extremely important and stuff has much lower average levels compared to electronic productions. Admittedly, it is not very probable that folks doing processing on orchestral takes will turn to Ableton, but who knows.
If I were still using Ableton, to be on the safe side, I would make sure to mix as hot as possible without clipping, something I don't have to do in other DAWs.
The problem here is that Ableton may not spit out exactly what you're feeding it, losing you some dynamic range without asking you for your okay. From a technical standpoint, that's a flaw. People searching for fidelity and a lot of dynamic range should simply look elsewhere.
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- KVRAF
- 35677 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany
All the more puzzling that this is the first time I ever read about it.crickey13 wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:02 pm It's not a producer's issue, it's predominantly an audio technician's issue.
Ableton exists since 2001 now.
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- KVRian
- 823 posts since 27 Aug, 2020
Yeah, it's kinda weird nobody's noticed this before.
My guess is that since Ableton has always been geared mostly towards electronic music production, it's never been much of an issue because guys doing EDM or pop don't care about dynamic range at all and constantly chase after the next loudness level target, sacrificing more and more dynamic range for more loudness.
Whenever you see people mixing in Ableton e.g. Sadowick or Tom Cosm, they always mix stuff super effing hot and clipping all over the place, so the gating simply does not apply to most people using Ableton.
That being said, it's still an odd technical choice and one should be able to turn it off.
My guess is that since Ableton has always been geared mostly towards electronic music production, it's never been much of an issue because guys doing EDM or pop don't care about dynamic range at all and constantly chase after the next loudness level target, sacrificing more and more dynamic range for more loudness.
Whenever you see people mixing in Ableton e.g. Sadowick or Tom Cosm, they always mix stuff super effing hot and clipping all over the place, so the gating simply does not apply to most people using Ableton.
That being said, it's still an odd technical choice and one should be able to turn it off.