DAW: Which is Best for Sample-Based Music Production?

[tommyzai]

Which DAW is Best for Sample-Based Music Production?

For many years, Ableton Live has been considered the best for working with samples (loops, one-shots, etc).

Is Live still the best for this? If so, why?
If not, which DAW is and why?

[Scrubbing Monkeys]

I would definitely take a look at Mulab by Mutools. They added some real interesting things in ver 8 in regards to sample slicing and play back. In ver 9 they added a live matrix which is similar to Live as far as triggering samples, loops and live jamming. An easy fun daw either way.

[pierb]

All major DAWs these days have the same time stretching algo (Elastique Pro) and can have loops that adjust to the tempo of the track.

I think Bitwig and Live have an edge with the drum rack. Other DAWs have similar solutions (eg: Groove Agent etc) too, or you can use third party stuff (eg: Battery, Nuance, etc), but the drum rack workflow is IMO the best one for loading and working with one shot samples.

Considering that, I guess you should rather look at which DAW has a workflow that better suits you. Mac, PC, or both? Do you like the single window design of Ableton Live or maybe you prefer to work on a larger piano roll? Do you prefer something like the session view with loops or a traditional linear arrangement workflow? I think that's the stuff you should be looking at.

[tommyzai]

Some DAWs have a balance between Audio (recording and samples) and MIDI, while others lean more on on recording (Protools, etc.), MIDI (CuBase, perhaps), and then . . . working with samples is another thing . . . which DAW shines with samples? Serato Studio shows some promise.

[FapFilter]

Renoise.

Acid Pro was good too back in it's day

[apoclypse]

Pretty much any modern DAW at this point has more than capable sampling capability. It really depends on what kind of sampling you want to do.

[tommyzai]

Which DAW has the best . . .

*Sample Browser
*Easiest to insert into a track
*Editing features
*Stretch/shrink to beat
*Key analyze

[pierb]

Which DAW has the best . . .

*Sample Browser
*Easiest to insert into a track
*Editing features
*Stretch/shrink to beat
*Key analyze

*Sample Browser: Probably Cubase's media bay is the best browser of all DAWs. You could also look into XLN XO or Algonaut Atlas just for browsing drum samples.

*Easiest to insert into a track: Live or Bitwig using a drum rack if you want to write MIDI. Or Cubase's sample track. If you just want to drop audio into a track all DAWs are quite similar.

*Editing features: Cubase or Pro Tools

*Stretch/shrink to beat: pretty much any DAW. Cubase, Live, Bitwig, Studio One, Logic, etc.

*Key analyze: I guess Studio One since it can extract chords from polyphonic material. I think Cubase also has this but I'm not 100% confident.

[ozinga]

Logic Samplers check all except the browser, which is horrible.

[jancivil]

chords from polyphonic material. I think Cubase also has this but I'm not 100% confident.

Cubase 12 does

[machinesworking]

Which DAW is Best for Sample-Based Music Production?

For many years, Ableton Live has been considered the best for working with samples (loops, one-shots, etc).

Is Live still the best for this? If so, why?
If not, which DAW is and why?

It's still Live, by a long shot.

Live still beats out all the traditional DAWs when it comes to the "uninterrupted audio engine" concept, this effectively makes Live a sampler in an of itself, it's not just a DAW with good sampling abilities.

With that in mind, Live is set up with multiple ways to fire those samples, whether by Clips or in one of it's Sampler plug ins.

Live has multiple time stretching algorithms, plus REX type slicing.

Live resamples itself, it can mostly route anything anywhere.

Seriously, I've always treated Live like a sampler workstation more than a traditional DAW, and it really shines in that department. The only possible let down is no Melodyne/Autotune type pitch capabilities, no ARA support. You can use Melodyne in Live, but it's not integrated like Studio One etc. It doesn't have it's own solid pitch editing capabilities like Logic or DP, but it's stretch is IMO better than the rest.

Bitwig is almost there, but it concentrates more on modulation than great time stretching capabilities IMO. The rest are far behind.

[sleepypoos]

Which DAW is Best for Sample-Based Music Production?

For many years, Ableton Live has been considered the best for working with samples (loops, one-shots, etc).

Is Live still the best for this? If so, why?
If not, which DAW is and why?

It's still Live, by a long shot.

Live still beats out all the traditional DAWs when it comes to the "uninterrupted audio engine" concept, this effectively makes Live a sampler in an of itself, it's not just a DAW with good sampling abilities.

Live has PDC issues though doesn't it? The reason Cubase drops out is because it's recalculating and resyncing everything. I'd much rather have everything compensated with a drop out than not, otherwise, you're just going to have to stop playback anyways.

I've never really seen Live as the best sample production based DAW, it's the best looping DAW. Those aren't really the same things are they? We should probably clarify for the sake of the OP.

Because, a lot of composers are using all samples - but not many want to score films in Ableton.

And how are we using samples? Are we talking about manipulating chunks of audio events on the timeline? Because Ableton is not really great at that either in terms of UI and editing workflow.

Are we recording samples, editing them, naming them, organizing them, etc? Again Ableton not great.

A good reference is to maybe watch Ian Kirkpatricks streams, because he uses both a lot of audio samples on the timeline, as well as MIDI->VSTi. He doesn't do anything too out of this world crazy though, still interesting to see how a producer works in Cubase making some of the highest charting tracks because most don't see Cubase as a pop music making DAW.

Which DAW has the best . . .

*Sample Browser
*Easiest to insert into a track
*Editing features
*Stretch/shrink to beat
*Key analyze

I am a Cubase "fanboy", but that's definitely Cubase and @pierb had some good points but I'm going to expand on a couple things.

First off, Cubase comes with a VSTi called Groove Agent. It's an absolute sleeper, but is by far one of the most powerful tools I've ever used. It has its annoyances, but I'm not sure I could live without. Don't confuse the older Groove Agents with what it is today (v5) and there should be a new version out soon, this year or next. It can do a lot of things (including clip/loop playback, piano roll sequencing, automatic loop chopping to pads, etc), but I really just love it for organizing all my sounds into, doing sound design, and layering of sounds.

Cubase also has SamplerTrack v2, as well as a very powerful sample based granular VSTi included PadShop.

MediaBay is in fact probably the best integrated sound browser out of all the DAWs. I see most people on other DAWs relying on soundminer and such. You can create your own custom attribute columns in Cubase which is nice, maybe other DAWs can do that.

They actually give you three browsers, MediaBay (which is for everything - sounds, presets, track presets, templates, etc), SoundBrowser, and LoopBrowser. The last two are based and look exactly like MediaBay, but are dictated to their intended media type - actual sound files, and loops.

Editing in Cubase has become very good.

Cubase MIDI is second to none (S1 does have some nice MIDI features, but I expect Cubase to duplicate or outdo by next version).

Cubase now comes with Spectralayers One, which is a spectral editor. If you are doing sampling off vinyl, or youtube or whatever and you want to clean things up, isolate the sound you want... Spectralayers can do this.

What else, I mean, you have a fleet of other products all under the Steinberg name. The full version of Halion is a Kontakt equivalent but with way deeper GUI accessible synthesis. You can export your instruments, could easily create your own drum samplers. The full version of Spectralayers can unmix songs, isolate vocals and instrumentation. You have Wavelab which is great for sample editing. Other sample based VSTis like Backbone.

probably missing some things, I'm feeling sleepy

[machinesworking]

Live has PDC issues though doesn't it? The reason Cubase drops out is because it's recalculating and resyncing everything. I'd much rather have everything compensated with a drop out than not, otherwise, you're just going to have to stop playback anyways.

I think you're confusing Live with Logic, which still has a few PDC issues.

I've never really seen Live as the best sample production based DAW, it's the best looping DAW. Those aren't really the same things are they? We should probably clarify for the sake of the OP.

Live, what with it's time stretching and Clips is most definitely a sample production based DAW. I've always used clips as a way to not only do loops, but also one shots, and that's much, much more powerful in Live than any other DAW. I mean really, this sort of sample and loop based workflow is what Live is all about.

Because, a lot of composers are using all samples - but not many want to score films in Ableton.

Moving the goalposts a bit here, but if your'e talking about third party plug ins, which you would be if we're talking film scoring and sample libraries, then definitely I would say without a doubt DP11 and Studio One are tops for that. The latest and best implementations of articulation management in those two DAWs. When someone mentions "sample based music production" I'm going to assume they mean making and using their own samples, not sample libraries, and with that in mind, Live is by far the best choice. I'm a DP11 guy through and through, but Live is easily better at sample manipulation than any other DAW.

And how are we using samples? Are we talking about manipulating chunks of audio events on the timeline? Because Ableton is not really great at that either in terms of UI and editing workflow.

You're wrong about that, can't really add anything, it's just not a well thought out statement. Live's Arrangement Page is not as geared as the old school DAWs towards Pro Tools audio editing, but that has nothing to do with "sample based music production".

Are we recording samples, editing them, naming them, organizing them, etc? Again Ableton not great.

Again, sorry, but stupidly wrong here, sample manipulation is where Live thrives, it's where Clips are king. That's not arguable at all. I've literally while performing live recorded the vocalist and manipulated that clip in real time while playing. I'm getting the impression you've never used or seen Live in action.

I am a Cubase "fanboy"

yeah that's coloring your viewpoint in a drastic and unproductive way. Cubase right away is not as good at sample manipulation as Live, (or Bitwig, DP11, and Logic for that matter), it doesn't have a clip based timeline, so it's ability to record and play samples quickly is limited. In terms of the samplers included, Live beats it there as well. Even if you add in Halion, Halion does not have half the library that Kontakt, VSL, East West, or UVI workstations have. You're better off going for a third party plug in like Kontakt which is default king in terms of libraries. Any DAW can use Kontakt. In terms of film scoring it's probably only DP that can compete as far as features to lock to film, but Cubase has an older implementation of Articulation mapping, which has been surpassed by DP and Studio One. The other elephant in the room is unless you're looking to use sheet music, then it's only the lock to film part that's better, and a lot of the features to lock to film are not really that used anymore. People score in Live all the time, locking to film isn't needed when you can stretch the whole song with little artifacts to fit the scene.

Without a true sampler integrated into Cubase at the level that Bitwig, Live, ReNoise etc. have, it's a great DAW, but it's not unseating or even competing with Live in terms of using it like a sample based music production studio. Plus to your point, it does not work real time, which Live, Bitwig, and now DP can.

[sleepypoos]

I think you're confusing Live with Logic, which still has a few PDC issues.

Nope not confused.

Live, what with it's time stretching and Clips is most definitely a sample production based DAW. I've always used clips as a way to not only do loops, but also one shots, and that's much, much more powerful in Live than any other DAW. I mean really, this sort of sample and loop based workflow is what Live is all about.

Cubase has all sorts of time stretch capability, any time I drag a loop in, it fits the bar(s) automatically. There's all sorts of utilities as well in terms of tempo mapping. The latest is, they just added in V12 multi-track phase coherent timewarp editing and it's significantly good.

--

Moving the goalposts a bit here, but if your'e talking about third party plug ins, which you would be if we're talking film scoring and sample libraries, then definitely I would say without a doubt DP11 and Studio One are tops for that. The latest and best implementations of articulation management in those two DAWs. When someone mentions "sample based music production" I'm going to assume they mean making and using their own samples, not sample libraries, and with that in mind, Live is by far the best choice. I'm a DP11 guy through and through, but Live is easily better at sample manipulation than any other DAW.

Mhm, I'm going to have to ask, have you ever used Cubase bro? You should do a bit of reading into who Mark Wherry is, and his work with Hans Zimmer. Hans Zimmer does an interview somewhere where he talks about how they sample their recordings of musicians and reuse them in new film scores.

You should go watch some of Junkie XLs youtube series on Cubase, and take a look at his setup. He's all about his own samples and resampling.

I mean, fck them talk about me. I've recorded and or extracted already recorded projects, fine edited, mixed/processed, named+described, organized and implemented over 10,000 of my own samples. I'm sort of an undeniable expert in this, and there is no way in hell any of the other DAWs could have done it as fast or better. I know this without a doubt Everything is tagged in MediaBay, I can find things by microphone used, outboard processor used, what album it's from, what instrumentalist was recorded, what year, which projects it has already been used in, genre, sub genre, style, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Again, sorry, but stupidly wrong here, sample manipulation is where Live thrives, it's where Clips are king. That's not arguable at all. I've literally while performing live recorded the vocalist and manipulated that clip in real time while playing. I'm getting the impression you've never used or seen Live in action.

Sweeping a filter is cool bro, for sure. I said, Live is good for looping or clips or whatever you want to call it - for me Sampling is about a lot more than that. It's not one thing. Live manipulation of samples, is not really sampling. That's a performance with samples. What you are describing is more sound on sound looping... you can see a guy on Twitch named HoneyCombBeats who does Ableton shit as good as anyone with a Boss looper or something - no DAW.

I can emulate Ableton production styles in Groove Agent pretty much..

If the OP wants to work with loops on the fly, perhaps Live is the choice. But in the big picture for general sample management, use, implementation, recording, editing, customization, organization, composition, I wouldn't recommend Ableton.

If you're incapable of working and thinking linearly, then I would maybe recommend Ableton.

[sleepypoos]

yeah that's coloring your viewpoint in a drastic and unproductive way. Cubase right away is not as good at sample manipulation as Live, (or Bitwig, DP11, and Logic for that matter), it doesn't have a clip based timeline, so it's ability to record and play samples quickly is limited. In terms of the samplers included, Live beats it there as well. Even if you add in Halion, Halion does not have half the library that Kontakt, VSL, East West, or UVI workstations have. You're better off going for a third party plug in like Kontakt which is default king in terms of libraries. Any DAW can use Kontakt. In terms of film scoring it's probably only DP that can compete as far as features to lock to film, but Cubase has an older implementation of Articulation mapping, which has been surpassed by DP and Studio One. The other elephant in the room is unless you're looking to use sheet music, then it's only the lock to film part that's better, and a lot of the features to lock to film are not really that used anymore. People score in Live all the time, locking to film isn't needed when you can stretch the whole song with little artifacts to fit the scene.

Without a true sampler integrated into Cubase at the level that Bitwig, Live, ReNoise etc. have, it's a great DAW, but it's not unseating or even competing with Live in terms of using it like a sample based music production studio. Plus to your point, it does not work real time, which Live, Bitwig, and now DP can.

I missed this one

I put it into quotations for a reason if you didn't catch that. My view point is actually psychotically uncoloured, I don't give a flying sh!t mate. I use what is undeniably best as if I'm using it to launch a rocket with human life onboard - I'm not going to fk around. I started on FL Studio, then Cubase, then I spent $15,000 to learn Pro-Tools and Logic, and I've used just about everything else including SAW studio.

brother oh brother, you realize people were sampling, before clip based timelines right?

It's not the end all be all, I would much rather evade the %98 of Ableton that is unusable then have my production skills depend on fancy loops. Most Cubase users, wouldn't want clip based production in Cubase even if it were a free update.

You talked a lot about Halion and Kontakt, but you skipped over Groove Agent which was the main emphasis of my post.