I've been waiting for a new Surface Pro (the tablet, not the Surface Book laptop), which was announced today. The previous versions seemed like they wouldn't be up to the task for music production, for my needs. I think the thermal throttling was the thing that I was concerned about the most, plus, I think the surface pro 7 was only a dual core CPU, if I'm not mistaken. I've never owned/used a Surface Pro. But I did own a laptop at one point that was dual core, and it didn't work well for me, for music production.
I currently run 2 laptops, and am usually working on the smaller one (Dell XPS 13), which has a i7-1185G7 CPU, which is quad core, 16GB RAM, and it holds up really well for me. It was bought in 2017 I think.
I think the specs on the new Surface Pro 8 (i7-8550U) quad core CPU will probably work well, possibly better. The CPU is better - I think it will come down to thermal throttling. The SP8 does have a new cooling system (active cooling/fan, vapor chamber, etc).
Anyway, I think we're finally at the point where, for my usage at least, I could do music production on a tablet. I tend to use a good amount of synths/vsts, and some sample libraries. I'm not trying to create a large orchestral template in my DAW and try to do sound track work or big scores. But I have done some tests on my current machine, and I can get like 50 Serums playing a chord with just a default/sawtooth patch... and so that's my typical test/benchmark. Not super scientific, but that usually lets me know if it's viable for what I do.
I've always wanted to be work on a tablet as my main machine - detach from monitor and take the thing on the couch for just noodling/surfing, but when on my desk, attached to monitor and power, have something that will keep up with music production.
I may decide to pull the trigger on one soon. I will probably wait for some performance articles/videos, and see how the thermals do.
Surface Pro 8 for Music Production...maybe
-
- KVRian
- 1395 posts since 16 Jan, 2004
-
- KVRer
- 12 posts since 22 Sep, 2021 from Kraków, Poland
Surface is amazing for music production - especially with the usage of touch native DAWs like Bitwig. Definitely worth any penny.
My music:
https://sptfy.com/tomarkus
https://sptfy.com/tomarkus
-
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1395 posts since 16 Jan, 2004
Hi Tomarkus - thanks for the reply. Are you using a Surface?
I've done a bit more reading, and the thing that concerns me is the thermal throttling that is being done in the SP7. It seems the throttling caps the CPU core temp to 60C, despite the fact that the CPUs are typically rated for 100C.
I'm waiting for performance tests and information from reputable sources on that very thing. If the SP8 resolves those throttling issues, I'll buy one.
I've done a bit more reading, and the thing that concerns me is the thermal throttling that is being done in the SP7. It seems the throttling caps the CPU core temp to 60C, despite the fact that the CPUs are typically rated for 100C.
I'm waiting for performance tests and information from reputable sources on that very thing. If the SP8 resolves those throttling issues, I'll buy one.
-
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1395 posts since 16 Jan, 2004
Well, I have one on its way. Reviews are very favorable, as it seems to be performing like ultrabooks in the same class more or less. Hoping to have it in house soon and explore the viability as as replacement to my current machine.
-
- KVRist
- 68 posts since 6 Oct, 2014
Resurrecting an old post but @OP, I was wondering how this has been for you? Have you done any benchmarks?
I ordered a Surface Pro 8 and am wondering the same thing, have been debating over an alternative.
The TDP on the Surface Pro 8 is only 15w which makes me wonder how capable it actually is.
I ordered a Surface Pro 8 and am wondering the same thing, have been debating over an alternative.
The TDP on the Surface Pro 8 is only 15w which makes me wonder how capable it actually is.
-
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1395 posts since 16 Jan, 2004
Oh, hey 
So, I did end up ordering the SP8 the week it was released. I've been using it since then, and it's been great for me and my usage for music production. It replaced my main laptop, a Dell XPS 13, as mentioned in my OP.
When I got it, I do a test that I do for all new machines - basically, run Ableton Live, and then load up Serum default sawtooth patch, play 3 note chords on a track, and then start duplicating the track to see how many instances I can get before it starts to crackle. I'm using ASIO4ALL (512 samples 21 ms latency). Just to note, I've found that with ASIO4ALL, I usually get best results by disabling other IO except the 48kHz ones. And while I have an RME Babyface (old, USB 2), often I'm just using the SP onboard audio card.
I don't remember the specifics, other than it was close to double my XPS 13. I want to say I was getting 60 tracks or something like that. Mind you, this was setting the SP into "Best Performance" mode. I don't remember the exact number, other than thinking it was double my XPS 13, and I could have sworn that got like 45 tracks, so it might have been close to 70 tracks?
I also opened all of my previous projects (40 or so) one by one and played them. No issues. A lot of them are not fully fleshed out, just ideas, so not particularly taxing, but I wanted to see if a couple hours of use if there was any throttling. Nope.
I'm impressed and super happy with it. Of course, it may not be for everyone - I'm not pushing it the same way a composer using 100 sampled-instrument based tracks would, nor am I super heavy on the effects per channel.
But, having read about the previous gen SP7 and the excessive throttling, the SP8 is the first tablet that can really do all of that (number of tracks, and actual music production in a healthy amount), I believe. And the reviews that came out (non-audio production related) all were touting the way better cooling, better handling of throttling (allowing higher CPU temps, but targeting the higher side of what's allowable on the chip vs trying to keep the thing at 60C).
Molten Music Technology (on Youtube) also did a recent music production set of tests on the SP and was also impressed.
I haven't used it in tablet mode much, other than to play around with it. Most of the time I'm at my desk where it's hooked up to my 34" widescreen monitor, m/kb, and USB hub. I did try the pen in Ableton (putting Live into pen mode) and it's very usable - I think I'd probably use that over the trackpad most of the time, when away from the desk (again, that's rare).
Regarding the TDP of the SP8 - I think there's some info about how it's 15w, but that's the minimum - I thought it was more like 23. At least, the one I have I believe is. I have the 16GB, 1TB with the 11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-1185G7 @ 3.00GHz 3.00 GHz
Hope this helps. Please post your results !
So, I did end up ordering the SP8 the week it was released. I've been using it since then, and it's been great for me and my usage for music production. It replaced my main laptop, a Dell XPS 13, as mentioned in my OP.When I got it, I do a test that I do for all new machines - basically, run Ableton Live, and then load up Serum default sawtooth patch, play 3 note chords on a track, and then start duplicating the track to see how many instances I can get before it starts to crackle. I'm using ASIO4ALL (512 samples 21 ms latency). Just to note, I've found that with ASIO4ALL, I usually get best results by disabling other IO except the 48kHz ones. And while I have an RME Babyface (old, USB 2), often I'm just using the SP onboard audio card.
I don't remember the specifics, other than it was close to double my XPS 13. I want to say I was getting 60 tracks or something like that. Mind you, this was setting the SP into "Best Performance" mode. I don't remember the exact number, other than thinking it was double my XPS 13, and I could have sworn that got like 45 tracks, so it might have been close to 70 tracks?
I also opened all of my previous projects (40 or so) one by one and played them. No issues. A lot of them are not fully fleshed out, just ideas, so not particularly taxing, but I wanted to see if a couple hours of use if there was any throttling. Nope.
I'm impressed and super happy with it. Of course, it may not be for everyone - I'm not pushing it the same way a composer using 100 sampled-instrument based tracks would, nor am I super heavy on the effects per channel.
But, having read about the previous gen SP7 and the excessive throttling, the SP8 is the first tablet that can really do all of that (number of tracks, and actual music production in a healthy amount), I believe. And the reviews that came out (non-audio production related) all were touting the way better cooling, better handling of throttling (allowing higher CPU temps, but targeting the higher side of what's allowable on the chip vs trying to keep the thing at 60C).
Molten Music Technology (on Youtube) also did a recent music production set of tests on the SP and was also impressed.
I haven't used it in tablet mode much, other than to play around with it. Most of the time I'm at my desk where it's hooked up to my 34" widescreen monitor, m/kb, and USB hub. I did try the pen in Ableton (putting Live into pen mode) and it's very usable - I think I'd probably use that over the trackpad most of the time, when away from the desk (again, that's rare).
Regarding the TDP of the SP8 - I think there's some info about how it's 15w, but that's the minimum - I thought it was more like 23. At least, the one I have I believe is. I have the 16GB, 1TB with the 11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-1185G7 @ 3.00GHz 3.00 GHz
Hope this helps. Please post your results !
-
- KVRist
- 68 posts since 6 Oct, 2014
Awesome, thanks much. I'll have to open up some of my larger projects on it to test out, but I'll try out the serum test using your same settings on my current laptop to see how it compares. I know the XPS13 has a very similar processor as the Surfaces do, so your results make a lot of sense. But if my laptop (with an i7 10750H) gets less than double that, I think it would be good enough.
I have been considering getting an ASUS ROG Flow z13, which would end up costing roughly the same after accessories on the Surface. The ROG is far more powerful than my current laptop but would eliminate my ability to do any digital drawing directly on the tablet, plus other factors that would make me prefer the Surface.
Edit: Results don't look promising.
I ran the same test on my current laptop and I was able to get 400 tracks with Intel Turbo Boost disabled, meaning the maximum clock speed was capped at 2.6ghz. With it enabled my max clock speed is 5ghz (45w TDP up to ~80 at full load)
For most of my projects that get completed, I'm unable to run them with Turbo disabled. Meaning the Surface will likely be no good for me :/
However, it being able to draw better than the ROG, being slightly more portable, able to work and still do some music, it might be acceptable... I'll definitely still have a desktop/more powerful laptop for home use. But I was considering the Surface while I'm doing long-term travels.
Anyway, I'll be getting the Surface tomorrow and I'll run the test there as well and compare the results. Maybe with some undervolting I can get some more performance out of it.
I have been considering getting an ASUS ROG Flow z13, which would end up costing roughly the same after accessories on the Surface. The ROG is far more powerful than my current laptop but would eliminate my ability to do any digital drawing directly on the tablet, plus other factors that would make me prefer the Surface.
Edit: Results don't look promising.
I ran the same test on my current laptop and I was able to get 400 tracks with Intel Turbo Boost disabled, meaning the maximum clock speed was capped at 2.6ghz. With it enabled my max clock speed is 5ghz (45w TDP up to ~80 at full load)
For most of my projects that get completed, I'm unable to run them with Turbo disabled. Meaning the Surface will likely be no good for me :/
However, it being able to draw better than the ROG, being slightly more portable, able to work and still do some music, it might be acceptable... I'll definitely still have a desktop/more powerful laptop for home use. But I was considering the Surface while I'm doing long-term travels.
Anyway, I'll be getting the Surface tomorrow and I'll run the test there as well and compare the results. Maybe with some undervolting I can get some more performance out of it.
-
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1395 posts since 16 Jan, 2004
Cool, thanks for the info, good luck with the Surface and looking forward to hearing how it works for you.
-
- KVRist
- 68 posts since 6 Oct, 2014
I can't believe how incredibly wrong I was.
I ran the same bench on the pro with turbo disabled and was able to get 350 instances of default serum with a 3 note chord (as you stated). With turbo enabled it caps at 400 instances, which for some reason was the same as my other laptop (must just be a numbers thing at that point).
I opened up a completed project on the thing and am able to run it without issue with turbo disabled using ASIO4ALL at a 2k buffer rate (this is what I usually run, as I don't record and just do everything in-box). Disabling the turbo allows it to run rather cool as well while under load (temps are not exceeding 60C).
FWIW my other laptop can't run this project without turbo enabled, and my other laptop has 2 more cores (but a lower base clock speed by .7ghz).
Guess I'm gonna stick with this thing haha. Sadly I can't undervolt it, but I think I'll be good with it as is.
I ran the same bench on the pro with turbo disabled and was able to get 350 instances of default serum with a 3 note chord (as you stated). With turbo enabled it caps at 400 instances, which for some reason was the same as my other laptop (must just be a numbers thing at that point).
I opened up a completed project on the thing and am able to run it without issue with turbo disabled using ASIO4ALL at a 2k buffer rate (this is what I usually run, as I don't record and just do everything in-box). Disabling the turbo allows it to run rather cool as well while under load (temps are not exceeding 60C).
FWIW my other laptop can't run this project without turbo enabled, and my other laptop has 2 more cores (but a lower base clock speed by .7ghz).
Guess I'm gonna stick with this thing haha. Sadly I can't undervolt it, but I think I'll be good with it as is.
-
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1395 posts since 16 Jan, 2004
Yo! That's awesome! Thanks for the report.
Yeah, the surface really impressed me - I was waiting for the day when it would be viable on a tablet, although it's as close to an ultrabook/laptop as any tablet has been, I think.
Pretty crazy, 350 instances in non-turbo. I should try the 3 note chord Serum test with a larger ASIO buffer size, and see if I get similar results, just out of curiosity, but probably safe to say it will. I do tend to need realtime / low latency for what I do, but not all of the time. If I'm recording vox into a plugin heavy project, I'll often just render out the project, open the result in Ableton, and record vox into that. No plugins at that point, so no game-breaking latency.
For disabling turbo, was that accomplished by setting the max CPU percentage to 99% (vs 100%) in the power settings?
Yeah, the surface really impressed me - I was waiting for the day when it would be viable on a tablet, although it's as close to an ultrabook/laptop as any tablet has been, I think.
Pretty crazy, 350 instances in non-turbo. I should try the 3 note chord Serum test with a larger ASIO buffer size, and see if I get similar results, just out of curiosity, but probably safe to say it will. I do tend to need realtime / low latency for what I do, but not all of the time. If I'm recording vox into a plugin heavy project, I'll often just render out the project, open the result in Ableton, and record vox into that. No plugins at that point, so no game-breaking latency.
For disabling turbo, was that accomplished by setting the max CPU percentage to 99% (vs 100%) in the power settings?
-
- KVRist
- 68 posts since 6 Oct, 2014
I failed to mention that I wasn't just waiting for "crackles" but until the project would just not play any audio. Generally, though, I don't really notice any crackles while producing, and if they occur it's only a couple here and there but never enough to interfere with working.
I hear that works but I use throttlestop, so I can control profiles and easily switch between turbo on and off with a keyboard shortcut. I also set an "alarm" when running with turbo on to swap to the turbo off profile briefly, so that I can keep CPU temps under control. You can also get more control of your clock speed - eg I like to lower the average clock speed while on battery, even with turbo disabled. Where as plugged in, I keep the clock speed at the max non-turbo (3ghz).OzoneJunkie wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:14 pm For disabling turbo, was that accomplished by setting the max CPU percentage to 99% (vs 100%) in the power settings?
On unlocked processors you can also undervolt with it. Sadly though the Surface CPU's are locked :/
-
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1395 posts since 16 Jan, 2004
Gotcha, thanks Lavis - I appreciate the posts/info!
-
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1395 posts since 16 Jan, 2004
If anyone gets an SP9, let us know how it performs, please. I'm still very satisfied with my SP8. I see the main boost is in multithread cases, which makes sense since the core count went from 4 to 10 (SP8 to SP9).
-
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1395 posts since 16 Jan, 2004
Also, I noticed that they removed the headphone jack on the SP9. That's terrible - it's literally a "no-go" for me. I need that for portable music production, as I don't want to carry any audio interface, and blue tooth the latency is too high. Unless they add the hp jack back in a future iteration, I'll have to look elsewhere for any future machines I buy. Likely go back to Dell.