I finally understood modes

[DJ Warmonger]

Well, took me some time. More than you'd believe.

In electronic music in particular, mode is separate from the key of a track. With fixed key (which in EDM determines the bass) one can choose freely from different modes that set the mood of a track.

Moreover, any melody (or chord progession) can be changed from one mode into another by simple transposition by a number of semitones.

Diatonic.png

For instance, moving from major to phrygian takes plus 4 semitones. Since not every note within a scale can be transposed by exactly 4 semitones, they must be transposed by 5 or 3 semitones each, which gives different flavours. This in turn changes the feel of the melody in a predictable way.

If I got this earlier, I would't make so many tracks with random modes popping all around. For instance the latest The Real Never Dreamed, which sounds like 3 different tunes stiched together

[Farnaby]

Well, took me some time. More than you'd believe.

For instance, moving from major to phrygian takes plus 4 semitones. Since not every note within a scale can be transposed by exactly 4 semitones, they must be transposed by 5 or 3 semitones each, which gives different flavours. This in turn changes the feel of the melody in a predictable way.

So how do you decide which notes are transposed by 3, which by 4 and which by 5? Why can't any note be transposed by 4 semitones.

I'm not sure this displays an 'understanding' of modes

[jancivil]

"from major to phrygian takes +4 semitones" -
if this is the same seven notes reordered AND this permutation centers on the tone we may find at that interval, yes.
The same seven notes becoming a new mode relies absolutely on, in this case that tone ("tonic" for lack of a short word) up 2 tones being central to the ear. The fact of say C D E F G A B starting on E, if the tonic is C it's still the major/Ionian mode.

C Phrygian for instance has no relationship to C major or C Ionian, so here you need to know the mode itself, its intervals. Its feel, its sound.
IE: 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7

[jancivil]

E Phrygian is no more beholden to C Ionian than vice versa. It's a handy memory device to begin with white keys and the note C, but E Phrygian is not a property of C Ionian, let alone C major.

[_leras]

Well E Phrygian is a mode of C major, and shares all the same chords.

I feel the names of all these modes are really confusing and maybe unnecessary. It might be better referred to with something like a delta symbol.

E.g.
E phrygian = C ∆ + 2

[shawshawraw]

... one can choose freely from different modes that set the mood of a track.

Check out the video Frank Gambale - Modes No More Mystery if you haven't. An excellent 1-hour tutorial especially the part noodling around those moods!!

[kvotchin]

never mind..

[Farnaby]

Well E Phrygian is a mode of C major, and shares all the same chords.

This displays a fundamental misunderstanding. E Phrygian cannot be a mode of C major - they are different things. Yes it is convenient to memorise the different modes by playing the white notes of the piano (as jancivil points out) starting on each step of the C major scale - but any mode can start on any step.

It is the pattern of intervals, e.g. tone, tone, semitone...etc that defines the mode.

The Phrygian mode starts with semitone, tone, tone. tone, semitone......etc
The major scale (Ionian) starts with tone, tone, semitone, tone....etc

[DJ Warmonger]

It is the pattern of intervals, e.g. tone, tone, semitone...etc that defines the mode.

Okay, but the question is what defines this pattern of intervals? As in the picture I posted, these are all equivalent in terms of available notes. How to tell one mode from another just by eyeballing the melody?

[Farnaby]

The way you do it is to identify the tonic, or centre of gravity so to speak. For modal music it isn't as easy as tonal music where you look for V-I cadences or at least something close. Almost by definition modal music doesn't have a V-I cadence.

But modes do have the advantage of having a distinctive flavour which you can begin to recognise, e.g. the sharpened 6th of the Dorian mode. You can eyeball this if your inner-ear can recognise this. Listen to Scarborough Fair for example - it sounds like it is in a minor key and yet there is something slightly strange - and this is the sharpened 6th which identifies it as being in the Dorian mode.

The picture you posted is a re-hash of the old 'white notes of the keyboard' thing which whilst a useful starting point does cause misunderstandings further down the line. Of course all the notes are the same if you choose to start your major scale on C, your Dorian on D, and your Phrygian on E etc, - but this rather misses the point that each mode sounds very different because of the pattern of intervals, which of course can be started from any note.

[gaggle of hermits]

the big problem this thread shows is the massive difference between using modes for soloing over chords, where it can make sense to "oh i can use G mix here" over a G chord in a song that's in C major. but it's a terrible approach for composing as it says nothing about the perceptual qualities of the mode. tip: avoid guitar instructors if you want to know about modes.

farnaby has already covered. but, just to emphasise, when composing, you are generally better off considering which notes have been flattened or sharpened relative to the conventional keys. for example, C phryg gives you instant goa by flattening the second degree (D) compared to a C natural minor. or D, E, A, B relative to major but as it's a mode with a largely minor flavour, it's probably best to think of it as a variant of natural minor when composing. similarly, with dorian as farnaby mentioned, that 6th degree sounds sharpened relative to a natural minor because it's used primarily as a minor-style mode so you don't tend to think of it as having flattened 3rd and 7th degrees.

coming back to phryian, most goa tunes (where there is one) hit that second degree a lot.

C lydian sharpens the fourth degree (F) compared to C major and again, if you want to make it sound lydian, you emphasise that altered note.

[Farnaby]

the big problem this thread shows is the massive difference between using modes for soloing over chords, where it can make sense to "oh i can use G mix here" over a G chord in a song that's in C major. but it's a terrible approach for composing as it says nothing about the perceptual qualities of the mode.

I agree absolutely as this confusion comes up again and again. Since the scale notes of G mix and C maj are identical it seems to just add confusion to state that you should use G mix over a G chord. Why not carry on using the notes of C maj? I think this is where the confusion arises.

The concept of identifying which modes work best with which chords is a device for improvising, but does not in itself make the music modal. To be truly modal the music would have to reflect modal harmony as well, and this is a whole new area.

[jancivil]

No, there is no confusion. Saying you're using G Mixolydian in C major just because a G chord has occurred gives two names for one thing: C major. One supposes the person believing this equally has 7 names for the one thing. Doesn't matter if a Frank Gambale or whomever says it, there is no "where it can make sense to". It literally cannot be two things, basic logic. G Mixolydian is on G tonic, end of story.

This comes up again and again because the internet encourages making baseless assertions and people believe what they see and lack the competence to recognize who has the facts.

No mode is a primary mode here. The modes except for the rather artificial or 'completist' Locrian pre-exist major, or minor by an epoch. Have a thought: why is Ionian not the 6th mode of Phrygian? There is no reason. One has mistaken a sort of mnemonic device for the thing itself.
"Phrygian" was "mode of E" during a time there was no major/minor paradigm. Ionian mode was something out of a concept musica ficta (basically a correction of Lydian or the Mode of F) an aesthetic marker of the time. And compared to the classic modes kind of evolved to conform with 'taste'.

Also, "major" refers to key. No mode is in/has a key, whatsoever. E Phrygian is_not in C major: C major means tonic C. Period. E Phrygian means tonic = E. Period.

To say doing major harmony, "all the chords are the same" is acting modally is flat wrong.

If you do Dm, G7, C probability virtually vanishes that you're in any of the 6 other modes and is practically nil that it's C Ionian, because of the dominant-tonic function. ANY use of a vertical tritone, here B and F, has to be done carefully, and by one who is able to establish modality identity despite it.
Carlos Santana, Dm to G major vamp for Dorian. Ya might get away with the 7 on G, but note that it isn't there in that.

For an example of genuine Ionian mode (outside of Indian classical, where Bilaval thaat and children of that raga represent), Frank Zappa's Watermelon in Easter Hay. Tonic is E, the first note of the melody is D#, it isn't leading tone, it isn't part of a dominant harmony, it's a #4 on the IV chord that passes through 6 (3 of A) to 5 (of E), and now 4-3. No D# in that melody is leading tone function, the only harmony is IV - I.

[jancivil]

So if one must have chords with modal music, there are chords which enhance the feel.
Gm to C is perfect G Dorian, the major third of the IV chord promotes Dorian character.

C to D for C Lydian.

The desire for 'seven chords' while we're supposed to be dealing with a mode is a naivety, basically.
Modal playing is about the character linearly, horizontally first, wanting all this chord action transplants from tonality, and tends to obscure rather than enhance. You can learn to sit still and get into what it is.

[Farnaby]

No, there is no confusion. Saying you're using G Mixolydian in C major just because a G chord has occurred gives two names for one thing: C major. One supposes the person believing this bequally has 7 names for the one thing. Doesn't matter if a Frank Gambale or whomever says it, there is no "where it can make sense to". It literally cannot be two things, basic logic. G Mixolydian is on G tonic, end of story.

I agree there is no confusion - I meant the confusion seems to exist in some people's mind

Modal playing is about the character linearly, horizontally first, wanting all this chord action transplants from tonality, and tends to obscure rather than enhance

Again I agree, modal is primarily melodic, though some supporting harmony can work as you point out. 'What Shall We Do With The Drunken Sailor' (assuming D Dorian melody) can be simply harmonised with C major and D minor triads alone.