I finally understood modes

[Farnaby]

Transposing is one type of change, but not all changes are transpositions. If you transpose music you do not change mode you simply change the tonic it is based on.

I hope this thread isn't going to go back down this line of nonsense that has been done to death elsewhere.

[ghettosynth]

I hope this thread isn't going to go back down this line of nonsense that has been done to death elsewhere.

Indeed, I was hoping for that too. That sort of thing is so out of character for KVR.

[Pashkuli]

Transposing is one type of change, but not all changes are transpositions. If you transpose music you do not change mode you simply change the tonic it is based on.

I hope this thread isn't going to go back down this line of nonsense that has been done to death elsewhere.

If you transpose music... indeed.
Please, read carefully what I wrote: transpose the melody (pentatonic), whilst the chord underneath stays the same!

Is it so difficult to read and comprehend?

At this point of ignorance demonstrated by some participants, maybe it would be much better to show diagrams on 'piano and guitar' layouts + audio examples.
Gee...

[Farnaby]

Is it so difficult to read and comprehend?

At this point of ignorance demonstrated by some participants, maybe it would be much better to show diagrams on 'piano and guitar' layouts + audio examples.
Gee...

Actually yes, a lot of what you write is rather garbled and hard to understand - though to be fair you aren't the only one. But you also seem determined to divert any thread towards promoting your own system and views, as you have done exhaustively elsewhere, rather than really engaging with the topic and with other contributors.

Accusing people of ignorance won't help your cause either.

[fmr]

Transposing is a change. A shift. You change the position in this case, not the intervals of the scale (pentatonic in that case above).
But with regards to the mode, the mode will change... although the pentatonic scale has only changed\shifted its position and the chord has not been changed\moved.
Yet, the mode will change (referred to the same chord used).

Utter BS. Transposition changes NOTHING. How is the mode changing if everything remains the same?

Let's think about the two remaining modes in tonal music (Major and minor). When you change from c minor to d minor, you don't change the mode, you simply transpose it. But it remains minor, no matter what tonic is it based on. BUT, if you change from c minor to C Major, you aren't transposing (the tonic C remains the same) but you are chaging the MODE then (from minor to Major).

And WTF are you talking about "the chord" VS "the mode". The mode contains the chord. Or else you simply don't know where you are.

[Pashkuli]

Utter BS. Transposition changes NOTHING. How is the mode changing if everything remains the same?

Let's think about the two remaining modes in tonal music (Major and minor). When you change from c minor to d minor, you don't change the mode, you simply transpose it.
And WTF are you talking about "the chord" VS "the mode". The mode contains the chord. Or else you simply don't know where you are.

Ok. This is going to be "fun"...

Take the "standard" pentatonic: this means no "semi-tone" intervals in that pentatonic. (in PMN: prime interval).
Generally, I do agree, major or minor tonality, your choice. Both will determine 6 modes (3 positions × 2 tonalities = 6). Also, they will be relative... so it does not really matter (because we won't change the chord underneath, we will keep it either major or minor, for more advanced we can use the Dominant chord but let's keep it simple).

Play some non-bluesy melodies (no cheesy clichés allowed), improvise something with that pentatonic, assuming (for simplicity) its relative modes are from A (for the minor mode) and from C (for the major). I use the old-school, special case, "Latin supremacists" names: A, B, C, D... Mkay?

As I mentioned let's keep things basic and hold some base\bass note C whilst dribbling with the Pentatonic. It will sound "major" (so called Ionian). Mkay?

Now... DO NOT CHANGE THE INTERVAL STRUCTURE (SCALE) OF THE PENTATONIC, RATHER TRANSPOSE IT 2 " " "semi-tones" " " (2 chromatic tones really) UP, WHILST KEEP STRUMING THE C BASS OR THE RESPECTIVE Cmaj (choose some inversion, I do not want to use the restricted music notation system).

What happened?

Well, Lydian mode happened all of a sudden. Now, we have left only one "Major" possibility left: Mixolydian (Dominant in the other chord form, called by the old-school... whatever a "7th" chord).
But no need to change our Cmaj above to a Dominant form.
Keep it struming. Transpose (change position) of the Penatatonic from where you are this time 4 " " "semi-tones" " " more downwards.

What happened?
Well, Lydian mode happened all of a sudden.Mkay?

Now...
To switch to a Minor general tonality and keep it simple (a.k.a. "on the white keys" of a "standard" piano), go back and instead of Cmaj use Amin chord.
Repeating the following 'movements' (transpositions) for the pentatonic, you will get: A Aeolian (first), move\transpose 5 " "semi-tones" " " down ("7 up, burp!" does not matter) = A Dorian, then move\transpose 2 " "semi-tones" " " down = A Phrygian.

Miraculous, isn't it.
I can not believe, I had to explain this basic use\implementation of Music modes.
Now, be a good kid, go wash your teeth and off to bed!

[Pashkuli]

Accusing people of ignorance won't help your cause either.

ignorance
lack of knowledge, understanding or comprehension of information

English is not my first language, so maybe... but ignorance is not an accusation. It is a diagnose.

[gaggle of hermits]

and if you transpose by a semitone you get C locrian minus one note. whoopdedoo. (other transpositions that lead to partial modes are also available.)

unfortunately, in your example, if the only transformation is a transposition and the addition of that original root note, you lose the G that is or was in that Cmaj chord. so basically, what you're describing is a heptatonic scale that is indeed a mode but you can't arrive at that scale/mode using the transformation you describe.

i don't know what you're trying to prove here other than "certain combinations of notes when transformed/transposed lead to other combinations".

[Hink]

Accusing people of ignorance won't help your cause either.

ignorance
lack of knowledge, understanding or comprehension of information

English is not my first language, so maybe... but ignorance is not an accusation. It is a diagnose.

it is not diagnosis either, it's a state of being..like you said it is simply not knowing. We are all in that club, all it takes to resolve it though is take the time to educate yourself and gain the knowledge.

Arrogance otoh, this thread, this forum, the internet and the world are full of arrogance.

Arrogance is the exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities. Ignorance is the lack of knowledge, information or education.

The latter is easily dealt with, gain knowledge...the former has an often insurmountable obstacle (ego) to overcome. I would suggest that perhaps you should think about that for a few, you cant learn with a mind that is clamped shut. A forum should be a place to give and take, not just give.

For somewhere around twenty years I have been a member of this site, I came here saying this and I still say it. Sooner or later in my opinion one has to adopt the concept that being wrong is only bad for the ego, it's good for our development and understanding the power of it is great for all.

There isnt a person here who hasnt been both right and wrong many times, when you're right...yay, yippee yah get to say I was right...you walk away with a stroked ego though which can backfire. But when you are wrong, mistaken, confused, unsure or whatever and you actually possess an open mind you will walk away with so much more, knowledge, the greatest gift on earth...you learn something new. Of course if you keep insisting you are not wrong when you are, well you do nothing positive for either.

When you accept your err (and we all err) conscientiously you dont get that huge ego pump, you dont get to laugh in the faces of others (seriously, does that even sound reasonable, but we all do it). However sub conscientiously I suggest you do a lot more for your ego, or at least it's far more healthy for your ego though it goes totally unnoticed because you dont get the gloat moments.

You cant form the results to suit your argument, you need to accept the results and form your theories to match the results.

[Pashkuli]

And if you transpose by a semitone you get C locrian minus one note. whoopdedoo. (other transpositions that lead to partial modes are also available.)

Unfortunately, in your example, if the only transformation is a transposition and the addition of that original root note, you lose the G that is or was in that Cmaj chord.

No. For Locrian we would need a special type of chord.
And no again. What you refer to as G is still in the underlying chord, so the mode is completely defined and presented.

I described just the most basic relation of pentatonic scales and modes in a trivial tonality.
This is really level 1 of Music modes. I feel cringe to have it explained above.

For the real defining of Modes, we could use the so called tetrachords (a sin ancient times) but that is really not relevant to modern forms (styles\genres) of Music. Though, would highly encourage the students to get familiar with the old definitions of the modes (although might lead to confusion).

[fmr]

And if you transpose by a semitone you get C locrian minus one note. whoopdedoo. (other transpositions that lead to partial modes are also available.)

Unfortunately, in your example, if the only transformation is a transposition and the addition of that original root note, you lose the G that is or was in that Cmaj chord.

I described just the most basic relation of pentatonic scales and modes in a trivial tonality.
This is really level 1 of Music modes. I feel cringe to have it explained above.

For the real defining of Modes, we could use the so called tetrachords (a sin ancient times) but that is really not relevant to modern forms (styles\genres) of Music. Though, would highly encourage the students to get familiar with the old definitions of the modes (although might lead to confusion).

Indeed it will... to YOU

Present me with a written score of what you described (rather confusingly, at least to me) and I will explain to you why you never left the old TONAL universe, and all this "modes" talk is just BS

[Pashkuli]

Arrogance is the exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.
Of course if you keep insisting you are not wrong when you are, well you do nothing positive for either.

Arrogance is to tell me A, B, C... are "the right" names for notes, then intervals respectively.
Arrogance is to try and impose something others might not agree with... or more over, have their own and do not want to be indoctrinated by the arrogant.

Arrogance, believe it or not, is extremely closely related to ignorance!
Ignorant people with what you described as ego (the exact definition is much more complicated) are the arrogant ones.
The best examples are in politics, religion, business, even in science till you get to the internet forums.

The clash of two opinions is a discussion. Arrogance is when one of the sides thinks the other other has no right to express opinion, point of view or authority. Hence every authority by definition is ignorant to the point of being arrogant.
Again, the best examples are in: politics, religion, business, even in science
Art... art is like black hole in this regard.

[Hink]

like I said, I am not babysitting anymore.

[jancivil]

trying to shoehorn modes into a system

what does that even mean?
Mars describes recognizing “Lydian Minor” in FZ’s style. I admit a kneejerk reaction myself. But! This is not different than making up a name for any synthetic scale, eg., Lydian Dominant. Which is Lydian with a flatted seventh (an imperfect name, but it conveys well enough). “Lydian Minor” has a flatted third (in both versions).
He made seven note sonorities out of seven note scale forms, including ones with mode names.

“there are ways of spacing those seven notes so that at all times you’re playing the entire scale. But you can make it sound like chords instead of blurs.” - FZ 1979

Here’s the analysis:

The ‘tonic’ column of Table 2 reveals an important modal aspect of the diatonic chords. Chords are classified as either Lydian or Dorian due to the tendency of the chords to set either the Lydian or the Dorian tonic as the lowest pitch. As I note elsewhere these two diatonic modes occur quite frequently in Zappa’s electric music. Together they form the core harmonic system that underlies much of the CB, being well suited to the task of making seven-note chords ‘sound like chords instead of blurs.’

Some relevant properties are indicated in Fig. 1. First, if both modes are conceived as stacks of thirds above their tonic pitch, all adjacent trichordal segments create consonant major or minor triads, and all adjacent tetrachordal segments feature major or minor seventh chords, thereby avoiding dissonances caused by intervals such as the tritone. Additionally, the modal-third stacks in Fig. 1 are intervallic inversions of each other; when inverted around a particular axis (D in the figure), the third stacks retain the diatonic scale (e.g. F Lydian and D Dorian would invert onto one another around D).
Lydian and Dorian modes also exhibit a ‘relative’ major/minor relationship similar to the traditional Ionian/Aeolian system of common-practice tonality; the minor Dorian mode is located a diatonic third below its relative-major Lydian. Similarly, one can generate Dorian as a ‘parallel’ minor to Lydian through the process of ‘adding three flats’ to a Lydian ‘key signature’.

(99+) An Introduction to Frank Zappa's Chord Bible Brett Clement - Academia.edu.png

…………

“shoehorned into” - hasty gainsaying is a long ways away from critical analysis. The look is .
I’m tempted to say it’s a drag on the whole level, but hey, there’s competition in here to do that, isn’t it.

[Fannon]

I like the idea of just sharing the understandings in this thread. So here's my take:

When playing a scale, you always have the same base pattern in western scales. This is even reflected by the physical layout of the pianos with white keys vs. black keys. It goes the following: 2-2-1-2-2-2-1 or W-W-H-W-W-W-H (whole, half) up to the next octave, which doubles the frequency. This is deeply ingrained in our musical culture and feeling. But it seems to be also rooted in math, because some of the intervals you get out of it result in harmonic wave shapes.

Now there are actually only two parameters you need to apply and you can get all scales in all of the modes out of it:

* First, choose the scale root note: Pick any note you like. Now start applying the base pattern on it. If you chose C as root, next whole step would be D, etc. until you arrive at the octave of your root note. The resulting 7 notes are now the notes you're allowed to play when you want to stay "in scale".

* Second, choose the tonic note. Pick any note of those you selected in the previous step. When playing your scale start / end with that note and only play the notes selected in first step. When playing music, the tonic is the note you try to center around and emphasize somehow. Depending on which note you chose, starting with the scale root note, you now know the mode. Let's say you took the second note of the 7 notes of a c root scale. You now have a D-Dorian, which has the same notes and chords as a C-Major, you just start playing the scale one note step above.

To also have this visually, I found this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_%28music%29

Modal_Interval_Sequence.png

So to sum it up: You play the same note pattern for all 12*7=84 possible scales of the modes. You just (1) start the pattern on different notes and (2) start playing the scale on a different note.

Why we associate and perceive this as so different (e.g. in mood) would be a very interesting follow up question. I do wonder how much of that is just cultural and training by the music we hear.