USB vs TB Lateny: Is There Really a Difference?

[FapFilter]

Hi,
finally decided to get me a more than just decent audio interface again, after having spent like 10 years now with my trusty old Roland Duo Capture EX.

Opted for a MOTU 828ES instead of an RME, because the latter are not available for some time here and comparable ones are more than twice as much as the MOTU anyway, which itself already is not cheap at all in my book (if you disregard the fact, that it's a completley professional interface with more in- and outputs than you could possibly shake your stick at) and now wonder if it's really worth going,for Thunderbolt instead of USB regarding latency and/or CPU use.
RME says it doesn't matter, since USB is already more than fast enough for this and i guess they are correct with this assessment, but others claim that using TB is basically PCIe level in regards to low latency performance, which should put it slightly ahead of USB in these regards, even if this is only for slightly lower CPU @ comparable buffer sizes.

Any real world experience regarding this, as TB3/4-> TB1/2 adapters are pretty costy for what they are?

[T-CM11]

RME says it doesn't matter, since USB is already more than fast enough for this and i guess they are correct with this assessment, but others claim...

I see your dilemma... who to believe: RME or "others".
Do you have a reason to doubt RME's claims? (other than: people on the internet say stuff)

Anecdote: Before my RME FF UC (my precious! ), I've had a MOTU UltraLite-mk3 - biggest POS (drivers) I've ever encountered! This is my experience of course (W7/10 laptop); other people have great experiences with MOTU interfaces (especially on Apple/OSX). But still, it shouldn't be a "lottery".

[BertKoor]

Bandwidth of the bus is not the limiting factor anymore since we have left USB1.1 behind.
Don't confuse Thunderbolt with USB-C! But it says on the tech specs

> Thunderbolt 1/2/3 or USB 2/3 port

So me thinks it works with whatever port is available

Edit, reply to prev poster

> I've had a MOTU UltraLite-mk3 - biggest POS (drivers) I've ever encountered!

There were times (a decade ago indeed) when it really was apparent that MOTU did development initially for Mac (with stellar results) and Windows drivers were not on par. No idea how it currently is.

[T-CM11]

Don't confuse Thunderbolt with USB-C!

USB-C is just the shape of the connector/port.

There were times (a decade ago indeed) when it really was apparent that MOTU did development initially for Mac (with stellar results) and Windows drivers were not on par. No idea how it currently is.

I replaced mine in 2017. Until then, there were no driver improvements.

[T-CM11]

It seems like it's a bad time to buy an RME interface. I looked at a few online stores (in Europe): 20+ weeks wait.
I bought my UC new for 799€ (in 2017) - it's "successor" (UCX II) now costs around 1300€.
I'm glad I got it (my bank account was less happy ), but if it were more expensive I would've bought the Roland Octa-Capture (good experience with an Edirol M-16DX, but not enough outputs).

From experience and research; the audio interfaces with the best Windows drivers are: RME, Roland, Steinberg.

[FapFilter]

Do you have a reason to doubt RME's claims? (other than: people on the internet say stuff)

i don't doubt their claims. they are completely right regarding bandwidth being way more than enough on USB2.
i actually don't even need to record on that many channels simultaneously.
but there's other factors like latency and actual CPU usage in which - at least in the past- USB (and also Firewire) never have been as good as PCI or PCIe, the latter actually being the biggest factor for me, as i'm already quite ok with anything <10ms round trip anyway, but consider less CPU consumption (and staying stable and crackle free even during high CPU utilization periods) a good thing

and MOTU gives claims about their low latency achievements specifically for Thunderbolt use, not USB.

[darkinners]

I use RME UFX+, comparing USB3 and TB connection, the latency under the same buffer setting the difference is approx. 0.7ms which means completely irrelevant as a consideration factor, unless of course, you are superhuman.

[T-CM11]

and MOTU gives claims about their low latency achievements specifically for Thunderbolt use, not USB.

So MOTU wrote better drivers for TB. That doesn't mean that they couldn't have done that for USB... (but didn't)

[FapFilter]

yeah, probably being too anal about theoretical values here

[FapFilter]

and MOTU gives claims about their low latency achievements specifically for Thunderbolt use, not USB.

So MOTU wrote better drivers for TB. That doesn't mean that they couldn't have done that for USB... (but didn't)

that might be it, but TB is said to actually be technically closer to PCIe, providing (theoretically) lower latencies and CPU consuptioms.
But of course one can read a lot of BS on the internet, especially in Apple land, where lots of people just fantasize technical incorrect features as "facts"

[T-CM11]

But of course one can read a lot of BS on the internet, especially in Apple land, where lots of people just fantasize technical incorrect features as "facts"

I've read a lot of BS from Windows land too. An audio interface with dedicated ASIO drivers can (and mostly will) give you better audio performance vs. Realtek+ASIO4ALL - but you won't read that on a gaming hardware website.

It took me quite a while to realise that there was something wrong* with the MOTU (drivers). It was an incompatibility with my computer hardware. What or why, I never found out.
After my quest for a solution (I ruled out buying a new PC) I concluded that audio interface drivers playing nice with Windows is a bit of a "lottery" and only a few brands stand out (mostly RME, but also Roland and Steinberg).

*My MOTU experience was really a horror story. It wasn't just (only) some crackles and a few DAW crashes... the whole system was (very randomly) unstable. Try troubleshooting a system with a freshly installed Windows that completely freezes up without doing anything. No Windows log of the event, and it only happened on a full moon, or maybe when a butterfly flaps its wings, somewhere. (I'm not saying that it happened rarely - there were a lot of full moons... and butterflies.)

[FapFilter]

yes, that's what i was hearing about MOTU back in the day too.
Maybe they are still bad on Windows, but now that i have a Macbook i think it's safe to give them a try, as most Mac users seem to be happy with their performances.
But you never know. Some people say Focusrite are bad for low latency (even on Mac), while others say they are very good for low latency.

[T-CM11]

... but now that i have a Macbook i think it's safe to give them a try, as most Mac users seem to be happy with their performances.

I agree, highly probable that it'll turn out fine.
Just curious; why did you migrate to mac land? M1 battery life?

You'll never find me there! I like being able to use my old plugins... and I just don't have the budget.
I do have 2 iPads: an iPad 2 and 2018. I use them as "hardware" touch based synths. (sequencing and recording on my PC)
I'll never buy one again! You know why? Some of my (music) apps don't work in OS14 (iPad 2018) anymore - and there's nothing I can do about it!

[FapFilter]

i'm a laptop user and the new M1 chips seemed the most logical solution to me as it probably the best chipset for laptops at the moment.
being dead silent is also an awesome feature and battery life is indeed really good (for the next couple years at least )
my last i7 laptop from 2010 was a jet engine at take off power for everything more than just displaying the desktop.
i know there are more quiet ones today, but still.
also, the price difference wasn't even there in many cases - though of course you can still find cheaper Windows laptops, but quite a few cost about the same, or even more, while being actually being slightly worse (as a true laptop)

luckily most of the stuff i use has been native M1 from the get go when i got mine in December.
had to wait for a few though, but they probably would even had worked fine using Rosetta2.
Now the only plug-in i use that's not native yet is The Drop, but it is working fine under Rosetta too

still keeping my old Win 7 laptop jet engine as a dedicated "vintage instrument" with some plugins i wouldn't have wanted to install on a new machine anyway.

but yes, Apple seems like a dangerous place to be regarding compatibility.
i don't have any problems staying on obsolete OSes, as i've already done that on Windows too, even though you usually don't have to fear breaking anything with system updates.
and i'm already prepared for an OS roll-back should that worst case scenario actually happen

[Pictus]

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