What is analog sound? Examples plz

[dark water]

^^

TMI.

.

fixed it now.

Oi!

You and your dodgy editing

You wouldn't get those problems using an analog typewriter
*hides*

[T-CM11]

You wouldn't get those problems using an analog typewriter

Those ribbons can be used to strangle babies! (just making sure that wazza stays away )

[dark water]

I'm also leaving now (again...)
I feel like such a fraud

[j wazza]

why does everything always come back to strangling babies with you, i think you produce too much heavy metal

[fmr]

TBF, I personally always thought it was an analog synth until I read up on it recently.
However, am I (and indeed those synth articles by SoundonSound etc) incorrect?

I guess it could be argued that the Elka Synthex is an analog synth in the main with digital extras, but again this would seem to open up a debate!

Cheers.

the signal chain is analogue but with digital control. dco is not a digital oscillator

Exactly. DCOs are also featured in the Juno-60, the JX-3P, the JX-8P and the JX-10, and nobody ever said those are "digital", or "hybrid". DCO means "digitally CONTROLLED" which means they have a more precise oscillation, and don't drift (go out of tune) as the VCOs. But they are still analog.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digitally ... %20designs.

[T-CM11]

why does everything always come back to strangling babies with you, i think you produce too much heavy metal

You're right, a lead pipe would be more efficient.

This forum can be really inspirational... in a musical context, of course.

On topic: Live playing, an analog sequencer, or DAW sequenced. What's more analog sounding? (I think it's time for me to leave now)

[HAL76]

Shameful boys

[ghettosynth]

TBF, I personally always thought it was an analog synth until I read up on it recently.
However, am I (and indeed those synth articles by SoundonSound etc) incorrect?

I guess it could be argued that the Elka Synthex is an analog synth in the main with digital extras, but again this would seem to open up a debate!

Cheers.

the signal chain is analogue but with digital control. dco is not a digital oscillator

Exactly. DCOs are also fetured in the Juno-60, the JX-3P, the JX-8P and the JX-10, and nobody ever said those are "digital", or "hybrid". DCO means "digitally CONTROLLED" which means they have a more precise oscillation, and don't drift (go out of tune) as the VCOs. But they are still analog.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digitally ... %20designs.

No, yes people have said that. I've written about this at length. I'm not going to endlessly debate here, but, in essence, a DCO as implemented in all of the above is a digital clock followed by a digitally controlled wave-shaper/integrator. The integrator is not an oscillator by itself. At best, a DCO is a hybrid analog/digital circuit.

The upshot is that a DCO lacks any of the temporal variation that is present in an analogue VCO precisely because of the stability of the high frequency digital clock and that the frequency is divided down many times. The oscillator (clock) itself is often inherently more stable owing to crystal control, but on top of that any variance in frequency is essentially reduced to nothing once you divide it down many many times.

The linked wikipedia article is extremely simple and limited and does not support your claims. The Electric Druid article is much better and gives you the detail as well as labeling the parts correctly, e.g., waveshaper.

https://electricdruid.net/roland-juno-dcos/

The Roland DCO is an interesting hybrid design. Although digitally controlled and digitally stable, the oscillator produces a true analogue output, even for ramp waves, rather than the typical staircase waveform produced by feeding an incrementing count to a DAC or from a wavetable.

Note that you get a "true analogue output" with a "hybrid design." What you need to understand here though is that "true analogue output" is considered in contrast to one that is generated by a low width DAC, e.g., like in the Poly800. Note that the Poly800 also uses a high frequency digital clock to drive its CPU. So the fact that a digital clock is actually an analogue circuit has no bearing on what we mean when we talk about analogue audio oscillators.

What you don't get is "true analogue signal variance" and that's, again, because the only actual oscillator is a very stable digital clock.

[elxsound]

why does everything always come back to strangling babies with you, i think you produce too much heavy metal

You're right, a lead pipe would be more efficient.

This forum can be really inspirational... in a musical context, of course.

On topic: Live playing, an analog sequencer, or DAW sequenced. What's more analog sounding? (I think it's time for me to leave now)

I got a drink. It helped. Sometimes it’s easier to look away.

[T-CM11]

At best, a DCO is a hybrid analog/digital circuit.

Maybe so (what do I know, I'm not an engineer)...
In a blind test:
- Jupiter 8 (VCO) sawtooth
- Juno 106 (DCO) sawtooth
- Diva (VSTi) Jupiter sawtooth
Could you pick out the non-hybrid purely digital sound? If a completely analog VCO is recognised by its random irregularities in sound output, then the Juno must sound the most "digital" right?

If analog (sound) would be only defined from an engineering perspective, then we wouldn't have topics like this. Ok, sounds great, let's do that!

[ghettosynth]

At best, a DCO is a hybrid analog/digital circuit.

Maybe so (what do I know, I'm not an engineer)...
In a blind test:
- Jupiter 8 (VCO) sawtooth
- Juno 106 (DCO) sawtooth
- Diva (VSTi) Jupiter sawtooth
Could you pick out the non-hybrid purely digital sound? If a completely analog VCO is recognised by its random irregularities in sound output, then the Juno must sound the most "digital" right?

I didn't agree to engage in this dumb-ass thread at a more detailed level, I was correcting a mistake in understanding about what a DCO is in terms of being an analog circuit. Whether one can hear the difference between two sounds is dependent on many factors. Whether analog matters also depends on many factors including context.

It's pretty clear by your suggestion of a particular blind test and reference to the Juno, that you don't understand the context in which this sort of thing matters.

Now, can I hear the difference between two oscillators droning on the same patch in a Matrix 1000 and my two DIY XR2206 oscillators which sound marvelous as a droning pair, yes I can. Does the simplicity of those particular oscillators contribute to their instability and suitability as drones, probably. Did Oberheim care enough about this to include separate HFOs for pairs of oscillators in the Matrix 6, yes they did.

If analog (sound) would be only defined from an engineering perspective, then we wouldn't have topics like this

LOL!

[fmr]

TBF, I personally always thought it was an analog synth until I read up on it recently.
However, am I (and indeed those synth articles by SoundonSound etc) incorrect?

I guess it could be argued that the Elka Synthex is an analog synth in the main with digital extras, but again this would seem to open up a debate!

Cheers.

the signal chain is analogue but with digital control. dco is not a digital oscillator

Exactly. DCOs are also featured in the Juno-60, the JX-3P, the JX-8P and the JX-10, and nobody ever said those are "digital", or "hybrid". DCO means "digitally CONTROLLED" which means they have a more precise oscillation, and don't drift (go out of tune) as the VCOs. But they are still analog.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digitally ... %20designs.

No, yes people have said that. I've written about this at length. I'm not going to endlessly debate here, but, in essence, a DCO as implemented in all of the above is a digital clock followed by a digitally controlled wave-shaper/integrator. The integrator is not an oscillator by itself. At best, a DCO is a hybrid analog/digital circuit.

The upshot is that a DCO lacks any of the temporal variation that is present in an analogue VCO precisely because of the stability of the high frequency digital clock and that the frequency is divided down many times. The oscillator (clock) itself is often inherently more stable owing to crystal control, but on top of that any variance in frequency is essentially reduced to nothing once you divide it down many many times.

.../...

What you don't get is "true analogue signal variance" and that's, again, because the only actual oscillator is a very stable digital clock.

I don't know what is a "true analogue signal variance". What variance is "true"? How much variance do we need to be "true"?

The article you linked says this: "The Roland DCO is an interesting hybrid design. Although digitally controlled and digitally stable, the oscillator produces a true analogue output, even for ramp waves, rather than the typical staircase waveform produced by feeding an incrementing count to a DAC or from a wavetable."

AFAIK, the oscillation (the sound) is produced in the waveshaper, which is an analog part I leave this as "thinking material". Don't consider this detail important enough to waste more time with it.

[BertKoor]

So I gave the reference track provided by HAL76 in post #1 a listen. I hear obvious samples in obvious patterns. Very digital. On these style charecteristics I estimate it being made ca 2005-2010.

[BertKoor]

you want to hear the difference between analogue and digital?

take your fgth relax first pressing 12" single and the cd of the tracks released more recently.
play them both on the same stereo system.

Nononono, you want the vintage CD release, not a current remaster affected by the loudness wars.

Tell you a secret: Two Tribes was the first 12" single I bought. It sounded amazing. And the last I bought, gave it away. The format did not really suit me.

[ghettosynth]

I don't know what is a "true analogue signal variance". What variance is "true"? How much variance do we need to be "true"?

What is "true" analog sound. I'm mocking the language.

I leave this as "thinking material". Don't consider this detail important enough to waste more time with it.

It's neither thinking material nor important. There's no insight there. What the author means by analog output is clearly qualified by the rest of the language and I explained this above. DCOs don't sound like VCOs because of the key differences in how they operate, DCOs are hybrid, VCOs are analog. Without a digital clock, a DCO isn't even an oscillator. DCOs have timing that is strictly digitally controlled and derived from a stable high frequency digital clock, VCOs have timing that is controlled by analog circuits at the audio frequency of oscillation. If they didn't sound different, nobody would bother to put effort into making DCOs sound more similar to VCOs. Go take this silliness to Oberheim who did exactly that.

I don't understand the insecurity that drives people to try and defend DCOs as pure analog. It's nuts that anyone can dismiss the contribution of temporal variance when the very manufacturers that have built DCO based synths have tried to convince you that you're getting a "true analog signal path" put extensive effort into trying to simulate that temporal variance digitally.