ROLI does release a new seaboard

[francium0]

Really didn't know about the company without reading this thread. I own the seaboard block when it was still selling in Apple store, it is an interesting idea. I admit that the device for that price is not up to quality. The rubber part seems to be easily have problem on the edge and it's a crazy dust collector. I also own SWAM String last year and surprisingly I don't find Roli very useful on SWAM String, I'm not sure about the brass or wind instruments, but for strings the expression cannot be realistic by using the pressure to shape the expression. I'm learning to use the bowing mode with waves instead for better realism.

One more thing that also bother me is I own equator 1 as a promotion gift when I purchased the block. When Roli studio and equator 2 came out the equator 1 suddenly totally disappeared on their list. I guess it will be totally out of support, and my upgrade path is the same as those who did not own equator 1...

The idea is not bad really. Hope may have similar product that come with a better company maybe.

[BONES]

I just set up a new computer last week and Equator 1 was there in my list of owned products and it installed perfectly. Maybe you haven't registered it to your account or something?

[francium0]

No. Please I'm not challenging anything. But out of support is a matter especially on MacOS which breaks working software much more often than Windows. Roli no longer have updates to equator 1 is the real situation as far as I understand. My copy is still working but it's no longer listed in my Roli account. Roli is not recognising it as their product lineup now. If you still have one could you let me know how I could find it?

Just one very simple question: Do you think I can still use it on Apple Silicon systems..

[machinesworking]

Speed, reliability, and power are all related to thermals. This isn’t an arguable point.

Nor is it relevant, particularly for desktop machines, which can be air or liquid cooled. M1 powered MB Air still has significant cooling, including fans, where there are Intel powered Surface tablets that manage without fans or, like one I used to own, uses liquid cooling for totally silent operation. So it is, at best, a technical advantage that is largely meaningless for real world usage.

The M1 powered Air does not have fans.. I own one, no fans, nada, zip. So you're talking about something you don't understand or haven't researched at all.

Not that it matters because you seem patently incapable of understanding this, but again, thermals drive everything. A 64 core desktop wasn't possible 20 years ago because... thermals. Microchips won over tubes because size, and their size was possible because of... thermals. The better heat can be managed the larger the core count, the better the chip. The i7 tech came from the mobile line up.

Whether or not Intel and AMD follow suite with Apples use of Arm is up for debate, what is not up for debate is Intel and AMD being acutely aware of what Apple has done reducing thermals on even close to similar speed chips to their offerings. They will figure out a way to match it or come close, because that's what competition does, and thermals will allow the next jump in speed and power etc.

The Roli can be set up for various plug ins, that specifically asks for different configurations.

It's got three sliders and an X-Y pad. It would be way less hassle to set it up on your DAW than to have to physically change presets on the hardware. OTOH, something with 20+ controls might be easier done on the hardware.

I find it's great to be able to jump between two or more settings on the MPK88 personally, especially in the same project.

The obvious one is part of the MPE spec, master channel of 1 or 16. The Linnstrument has 6 preset slots, you don’t need a lot, but a few is enough for all the most common configurations. Look at Roli Dashboard and see 5-6 configurations…

I no longer have a Rise, I can't see it's config and it's not something I would ever have thought to look into when I had the Rise because it seemed more useful to have those controls working on the Rise itself, in the same way I use a Touch Block to adjust my Seaboard Block on the fly. But if you can have multiple configs stored in Dashboard, then you don't need them on the hardware, do you?

That's the whole point, no decision by Roli, or disruption of their company prevents future versions of Windows or Mac from being able to use the hardware. No decision to not make a 128 bit version of Roli Dashboard prevents you from using the latest version of Windows on Arm if you so chose to, if Roli had 4-6 presets internally.

The Seaboard Block also has 5-6 presets in Dashboard, I still own the Block.

[machinesworking]

No. Please I'm not challenging anything. But out of support is a matter especially on MacOS which breaks working software much more often than Windows. Roli no longer have updates to equator 1 is the real situation as far as I understand. My copy is still working but it's no longer listed in my Roli account. Roli is not recognising it as their product lineup now. If you still have one could you let me know how I could find it?

Just one very simple question: Do you think I can still use it on Apple Silicon systems..

Contact Roli, they usually aren't too bad about replying. I doubt you don't have some sort of upgrade path to Equator 2. Not all upgrades are published by companies. There's still a really good upgrade from the deprecated Mach Five 3 to Falcon, but you have to contact UVI to find out.

It's a crap shoot whether Euquator 1 will work with M1, but so far only Reason Rack and iZotopes end of the line Breaktweaker are buggy in M1, and Breaktweaker works better on the latest version of Monterey.

[BONES]

The M1 powered Air does not have fans..

It might have been the Pro but someone posted a photo of one during a tear-down that showed how much cooling it still requires. But, again, you're arguing the minutiae and ignoring the main point, which is that it just doesn't f**king matter, no matter how much you desperately want it to.

Not that it matters because you seem patently incapable of understanding this, but again, thermals drive everything.

No, thermals clearly aren't everything because the M1 is slower than both Intel and AMD CPUs. How can you not get this through your thick head? What matters is what works best and both AMD and Intel offer better performance in almost every test than Apple Silicon. Everything else is just irrelevant bullshit.

Whether or not Intel and AMD follow suite with Apples use of Arm is up for debate

No it's not. Intel have a very clear roadmap that does not involve RISC (pun intended). They had the opportunity when they bought the failed DEC Alpha technology but they didn't see the point. Microsoft and its OEMs seem to have lost interest in ARM, too, given the market's lukewarm reception.

I find it's great to be able to jump between two or more settings on the MPK88 personally, especially in the same project.

Just as I find it easy to be able to configure my Seaboard on the fly as I work through a live set. But all my songs are set up to be ready to take the Seaboard and Lightpad input so it all just works.

That's the whole point, no decision by Roli, or disruption of their company prevents future versions of Windows or Mac from being able to use the hardware. No decision to not make a 128 bit version of Roli Dashboard prevents you from using the latest version of Windows on Arm if you so chose to, if Roli had 4-6 presets internally.

But those are as likely as encountering a Purple People Eater for most of us, so who cares? Like I said before - 24 years and 10 full versions of Windows and my oldest 32 bit VSTi still works, as does the first USB peripheral I ever bought.

The Seaboard Block also has 5-6 presets in Dashboard, I still own the Block.

Like I said, I've never looked because I don't know why I'd need such a thing. But I do run Dashboard when I'm playing so I can change octaves on my Lightpads. It's not elegant for such a basic function but it works.

[francium0]

No I do have upgrade path to Equator 2, but it is the same as those who do not own Equator 1 full edition. The only Equator2 Upgrade path is from Equator, ROLI Studio, Strobe 2 or Cypher2, and ROLI Studio should be come with Seaboard block, Equator also did not mention the edition. Anyway, I do have this upgrade price but the price is not greatly discounted for that amount I'll need to prioritize what may benefits me more, and if the equator 2 worth that $ as there are plenty of synths avail on the market.

Strange enough seldom have synths that is 100% backward compatible like massive and massive X they are not 100% compatible and are treated as 2 products. ROLI Studio do have equator 1 and equator 2 separated to use their sound, but equator 1 is clearly not under maintenance and it is obsoleted. That means those sound found in equator 1 in ROLI studio will permanently be "READ ONLY" and cannot be edited anymore. Unless you can open those sound in equator 2.

[francium0]

The thing I would like to mention is Seaboard is different from a traditional midi keyboard with aftertouch/mod wheel/pitch bend available. Especially I found it is hard to separate between velocity and aftertouch. For midi keyboard the force you hit the key is the velocity, and then how hard to press it further is the aftertouch, which the aftertouch is usually much harder to control in details as those keyboard usually only have a very narrow push range for aftertouch. On the other hand, seaboard is focused on aftertouch. It is very good on sensing how much force is applied over time in detail, and it's separated from all individual notes. However, this make velocity very difficult to isolate from aftertouch. Imagine if you need to have very high velocity with very gentle increment on aftertouch over a long time. To me, using seaboard and midi keyboard with aftertouch will need different sound design. That's why having the ability to modify the sound is very important. With equator 1, I don't find they really have designed something that really sound great and unique to seaboard's own characteristic.

[machinesworking]

Not that it matters because you seem patently incapable of understanding this, but again, thermals drive everything.

No, thermals clearly aren't everything because the M1 is slower than both Intel and AMD CPUs. How can you not get this through your thick head? What matters is what works best and both AMD and Intel offer better performance in almost every test than Apple Silicon. Everything else is just irrelevant bullshit.

Yeah at twice the thermal output..
Look, I get it, you're patently anti Apple, but the industry doesn't care about partisanship, football team loyalty or any of that bullshit. Intel and Microsoft both expressed interest in what Apple has done, because the power to energy use ratio is beyond what they can do right now. You're literally alone in thinking it's not a big deal, besides a few extremely partisan subjective opinion sites.

https://www.protocol.com/bulletins/micr ... ips-ampere

https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft ... -designer/

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/3 ... -v-and-x86


Intel and Microsoft are using the same tech, going in the same direction. It's just ridiculous to be an adamantly monochromatic thinker about this, the industry took note. Apple like every company makes some blunders but the M1 certainly was not one, and it's obvious the direction the industry is going in.

Anyway the new board looks dull color wise, but the features are cool. I'm fine with the block, I think making chords on the Rise was awkward compared. Trying to tie this into the actual topic..

[BONES]

Yeah at twice the thermal output..

So what? Why would I or anyone else care, as long as it does the job? That's shit for engineers to sort out when they design the machines, not anything for end users to give a shit about.[/quote]

Look, I get it, you're patently anti Apple

I'm anything but anti-Apple, what I am is anti-bullshit. I use to always include Apple products in my selection set but they never once delivered everything I was looking for as well as some other product. Of course, now they have put themselves out of contention so I'm not likely to consider them again.

Intel and Microsoft both expressed interest in what Apple has done, because the power to energy use ratio is beyond what they can do right now.

Good for them but, again, why would I give a shit? Why would anyone? Its about as relevant to my needs as knowing whether or not Satya Nadella smokes.

You're literally alone in thinking it's not a big deal, besides a few extremely partisan subjective opinion sites.

Did you bother to read any of it? Two are about cloud servers (Azure) and the third is about using ARM for security chips in devices. Absolutely nothing of relevance to desktop users.

Intel and Microsoft are using the same tech, going in the same direction. It's just ridiculous to be an adamantly monochromatic thinker about this, the industry took note.

No it f**king didn't. Read the f**king articles you linked to and tell me how any of it relates to laptop and desktop computers. ARM has it's place, for sure, but it' s not going to replace x86 architecture any time soon, as we've seen with Windows on ARM devices. Apple is clearly doing it because Macs are a sideshow to their main revenue stream, so aligning those two things onto a single platform works for them. I don't see that Intel has anything like that to drive them to make that sort of change. If they were interested in ARM, they've had 15 years to watch the mobile phone market explode and it doesn't seem to have motivated them to do anything except cancel some of their low-power chips (Atom, Core-M) that they were probably losing money on anyway.

Apple like every company makes some blunders but the M1 certainly was not one

No-one is saying it is but just because it makes sense for Apple doesn't mean it's relevant to everyone else.

and it's obvious the direction the industry is going in.

Yes, it is, but still you don't see it. Look at Intel's roadmap, it's laid out for years to come.

Anyway the new board looks dull color wise, but the features are cool. I'm fine with the block, I think making chords on the Rise was awkward compared. Trying to tie this into the actual topic..

Dull is good, it doesn't distract from your stage set-up. I always go for black if I can, keeping things as minimal as possible. I think the reason I haven't used my Ultranova in such a long time is that it's blue and looks stupid on stage. (It sounds good, though.)

[himalaya]

The thing I would like to mention is Seaboard is different from a Especially I found it is hard to separate between velocity and aftertouch.

The Seaboard GRANAD/RISE/Block does not have aftertouch. It has continuous-pressure.

However, this make velocity very difficult to isolate from aftertouch.

It all depends on the software instrument you are using to control a Seaboard. So, with Equator2 as an example, you have all the tools to fine tune how velocity and pressure respond together. To 'separate' them you need to look at the 'expression-curves' and MATHS (with the lag option).

'Expression-curves' allow you to create all sorts of modulation scaling, one of which will separate pressure from that immediate velocity touch. Simply set a deep exponential shape with a no-modulation zone. See image below.

Deep exponential expression-curve with no-modulation zone.png

If you add the MATHS Lag processor to it, you can further delay the onset of pressure. It works really well. If you'd like to find out more, you are welcome to PM me.

[francium0]

The Seaboard GRANAD/RISE/Block does not have aftertouch. It has continuous-pressure.

Yes, but after touch is also supposed to be a continuous pressure, just most of the device providing aftertouch usually have very narrow range of control meaning that it's very hard to control the pressure precisely. Seaboard has much more room in terms of pressure level. But it is still count as aftertouch, at least when you want to do it in other synths you need to treat it as aftertouch. I don't own equator 2 but equator 1. Midi velocity is counted as the "first pressure" measured, but as seaboard is a continuous pressure sensing unit, how it determine the first pressure is interesting. And indeed it can affect the sound depending on your sound design. So, if some kind of "lag" can be added meaning the "aftertouch" MPE message will come later such that you can get the velocity right first and then the pressure later, then it still very depend on your sound design how it should act between the initial velocity and and lag time of getting the pressure message. Also, it still mean you may need to have very special playing technique that u need to quickly press hard once and then release back to the initial pressure that you want to give the initial velocity for the sound and then give the continuous control for every single note. This technique just seems wired to me.


For 2 of my device which has aftertouch, both aftertouch start with a force level significantly larger than what you need to produce velocity value of 127, to a point you cannot move any further with all your force without breaking the unit. The pressure is continuous. Just from high pressure to very high pressure instead.

[plexuss]

I really like my Rise 49. I think it's exciting they are back in business and working to get a V2 out. Onward and upward.

[Tj Shredder]

No, thermals clearly aren't everything because the M1 is slower than both Intel and AMD CPUs. How can you not get this through your thick head? What matters is what works best and both AMD and Intel offer better performance in almost every test than Apple Silicon. Everything else is just irrelevant bullshit.

For thick heads: Mac Pro has the size of the power supply of a comparable spec Monster, and eats power of what the graphic card needs alone and keeps cooler. In gaming scenarios the monster can be faster, in others even under Rosetta the Mac can beat it…
It is amazing and at the same time pointless to even discuss…
And the moment we get to laptops, not only heat is relevant, also weight. My next laptop will be a M1 for sure, (and it will even beat my existing 10-core Intel desktop…)

[himalaya]

The Seaboard GRANAD/RISE/Block does not have aftertouch. It has continuous-pressure.

Yes, but after touch is also supposed to be a continuous pressure

Not really. When we speak of aftertouch/pressure vs continuous-pressure we speak in terms of what happens when you first trigger a note. With a normal MIDI keyboard with aftertouch you can trigger a note even with high velocity and aftertouch will not be triggered. You need to apply some force after-the-initial-touch (of the note), in order to trigger 'pressure'. So this 'pressure' is triggered after you trigger a note and apply some downwads force.

However, continuous-pressure is active the moment you touch the playing surafce, be it a plastic key, silicone surafce, or some other material (see Haken Contiuum). Here, you can trigger a note with the gentlest of touches and immediately trigger pressure.

just most of the device providing aftertouch usually have very narrow range of control meaning that it's very hard to control the pressure precisely.

This is true and controlling pressure on keyboards with aftertouch can be hard. It's not smooth and fluid, although many people do not realise that the actual 'expression curve' that controls pressure can be tweaked in system preferences (on a good hardware keyboard). This may or may not help to make 'aftertouch' more 'smooth' and controllable.

Seaboard has much more room in terms of pressure level.

Not really. It still works on the same scale of 0 to 127 just as 'aftertouch'. The difference concerns the actual trigger point, in that on the Seaborad pressure is active the moment you touch a key, which is not what happenes on any normal MIDI keyboard with 'aftertouch'.

So, if some kind of "lag" can be added meaning the "aftertouch" MPE message will come later such that you can get the velocity right first and then the pressure later, then it still very depend on your sound design how it should act between the initial velocity and and lag time of getting the pressure message. Also, it still mean you may need to have very special playing technique that u need to quickly press hard once and then release back to the initial pressure that you want to give the initial velocity for the sound and then give the continuous control for every single note. This technique just seems wired to me.

You don't need to use 'lag'. If you desire to separate velocity from pressure on a Seaboard just use that specific 'expression-curve' shape I've posted above. It imitates the way 'aftertouch' works and you can do it in Equator1. While Equator2 also adds MATHS where you can add the additional 'lag' processor. Personaly, I don't like to use 'lag' too much, since large amounts create too much delay and I don't like the feel it introduces, but for certain sounds it's a must.

You are right when you say that sound design and specific playing techniques go hand in hand. But this is true of any MPE instrument and special playing techniques are a de-facto requriement of the more complex MPE controllers. We speak of pressure here only, but how about the more complex LIFT (release velocity)? This requires another set of playing techniques and specific sound design techniques. But really the true skill is about combining all of the dimensions while playing, this is where the magic of MPE is (for me at least).