Your opinion on the Polybrute

[Trancer]

In appendix with the subject "An analog yes but which one"

I would like to have your opinion on the Polybrute.

For intensive use, given the poor quality of the keyboard, does it hold up?

Is there a functionality issue?

Regarding the oscillators that go out of tune, does it happen constantly?

Really happy with the Polybrute or regret the purchase and you should have taken other things?

[AnX]

145 pages here for your perusal

https://gearspace.com/board/electronic- ... brute.html

[zerocrossing]

In appendix with the subject "An analog yes but which one"

I would like to have your opinion on the Polybrute.

For intensive use, given the poor quality of the keyboard, does it hold up?

Loaded question. The keyboard doesn’t seem to be low quality at all. It’s a bit lighter than I like, but it seems fine and is holding up well. Velocity and aftertouch respond nicely.

Is there a functionality issue?

None that I’m aware of.

Regarding the oscillators that go out of tune, does it happen constantly?

My first unit had a bad voice card that would go crazy wonky, but I sent it back and it was replaced with a unit that I calibrated once and it has never gone out of tune again. Arturia service was excellent. Just to let you know, I do live in a part of the country where the temperature doesn’t go in extremes very often.

Really happy with the Polybrute or regret the purchase and you should have taken other things?

I’m really happy with it. IMO, it would probably be the one analog poly I kept (I’ve got a Prophet 6 and REV2 as well) if I had to keep only one. The sound is great, the feature set is amazing, and the morph function in conjunction with the Morphee and duophonic aftertouch keybed makes it the most expressive analog poly that’s ever been made. EVER!

[lfm]

I had my PB for 7 months now, and I calibrated voices twice.
Last time was in december as firmware update came.

Letting it run for 20 minutes or so powering up I just play it.
But it happends doing calibration that it fails, kind of, and you have to redo it.

I love it and what it offers. And what it offers is not only on panels but also hidden gems in menues that changes how envelopes respond to velocity, how much parameters and pitches are varied with voices(called vintage knob on Sequential) and many other things. Voice modes Polyphonic unison I love to bits, first key down use all 6 voices, second key 3+3 voices and so on.

And the morph thingy on all parameters is just awesome. Nordleads had it forever on velocity source only or mod wheel as source, here on every modulation source or combination there of. Do some morph transform with amounts as you feel fit with morph as destination. And having the ribbon and 3D morphé pad as well as 2 expression pedals as source, expression is your friend.

And it's a joy to work with. First time I saw MatrixBrute I hoped they'd make a poly synth too, and they did. Really brilliant way to do modulations and have visuals what is there.

Arturia write "a powerhouse" on their site, and it really is. Just about everything you can come up with they threw it in. Sequencer with 3 knob recording as well.

Motion recorder do one knob, like a small sway on a pitch knob, or filter cutoff or something. Yet another thing they threw in there.

I had AnalogLab 10 years ago, and keybed is just about the same. On the lite side, but aftertouch also superior in having lengthy feel to it compared to other keybeds with AT I tried. And AT has a new mode called duophonic that is poly aftertouch but on last note only, wanting to do something on that note alone not affecting all notes, you can do it.

I adjusted real quickly to keybed feel.

Became a bit lengthy review, killing some time. Chew in small bits if too much....

[kritikon]

TBH it saddens me that companies are still making analogues that go out of tune. That kind of design fault should have died eons ago. I used to have an MS10 - went out of tune horribly and very quickly. Then got an MS20 which Korg had obviously fixed in a very good way even back then in the 70s. It's never, ever once gone out of tune unless I deliberately did it. It still never does. VCOs obvs don't have to be that way as many other companies also made rock solid VCOs. It makes me wonder a little - do these companies do it deliberately to try to imbue a bit of the myth and vintage ethos into their modern synths? Fool people into believing they've got something really classic because it has age old quirks in it? Quirks that don't have to be there.

[lfm]

TBH it saddens me that companies are still making analogues that go out of tune. That kind of design fault should have died eons ago. I used to have an MS10 - went out of tune horribly and very quickly. Then got an MS20 which Korg had obviously fixed in a very good way even back then in the 70s. It's never, ever once gone out of tune unless I deliberately did it. It still never does. VCOs obvs don't have to be that way as many other companies also made rock solid VCOs. It makes me wonder a little - do these companies do it deliberately to try to imbue a bit of the myth and vintage ethos into their modern synths? Fool people into believing they've got something really classic because it has age old quirks in it? Quirks that don't have to be there.

Some philosopher said something of the meaning
"Exact is only in the view of the ignorant"

Equal temperament is not an exact tuning, it's math making all interval equal a twelfth root of 2.
http://www.rollingball.com/images/Equal.png

Thirds are in fact 13.7 cent off a perfect third.

Want to discover more about tunings go here
http://www.rollingball.com/TemperamentsFrames.htm

So which is to be considered "in tune"?

So having perfect digitally controlled oscillators is not to strive for.
Imperfections are to strive for.

I had no drifting problems with Polybrute, Prologue or DeepMind after warming up 10-20 minutes or so.

There was a demo of Starsky Carr comparing DeepMind if it was with Juno106 or similar. Once entering the numbers on DM for deviation for oscillators and parameters the sound was very similar to both.

Why do we often detune oscillators from each other, it sounds phatter and more full.

The revival of analog synths is all due to imperfections in the real world. The exact of the digital world sound stiff and lifeless.

Even quantizing drums and everything, and then use plugins for swing stuff to not be on the grid all the way.

So Yes, manufacturers do allow to deviate from equal temperament offsetting oscillators in pitch between voices, as well as parameters.

I had a Roland SH-32 which is pure digital that also had a wobbling analog setting for oscillators not so sound so stiff.

Listening to many ITB productions can sound really good, but then switching over to production with session musicians and it's alive and does not compare.

I like a statement of Dave Grohl in the Soundcity documentary
- you can hear it's people playing
- it's full of little imperfections

Polybrute has settings for deviations Mild Linear, Mild Expo and Wild to set how far you want to go, if at all. For pitch and parameters each.

This guy did analyze of a lot of the vintage stuff and what made them sound like they did.
http://voicecomponentmodeling.com/

He is a betatester on Polybrute too and provided some guidance for Arturia as he said.

You can go for perfect equal temperament, but remember that is not perfect either.

I abandoned Yamaha digital pianos since not enough settings to do stretch tunings like on Kawai. I get rid of wolf notes and harmonic beatings in the three octaves I play the most.

Looking at Polybrute, 3 voices are calibrated to be sharp and 3 voices flat when deviations are off. So chord sound fuller than perfect equal temperament on every voice.

[cryophonik]

Also, one big reason synth companies are still producing synths with VCOs is because they're trying to emulate that vintage sound, and there's a pretty big demand for synths that closely replicate the sound, vibe, and experience of vintage analogs (spend 5 minutes on Gearspace and you'll see what I'm talking about). Personally, I like my analog synths to have modern conveniences like stable oscillators with the option to introduce slop/instability and could not care less how closely a modern Prophet or Moog resembles their 40-year old predecessors, so I'm with you kritikon.

[lfm]

I spent some time on this in the 70's
https://www.vintagesynth.com/misc/synthi.php

You had one knob for pitch and one for octave range, and had to dial back and forth to get in enough in tune to actually play with others. And drift over time was huge too, my friend went on stage behind curtain 15 minutes before going on stage to tune it to be ready.

Nobody want that from a synth. I get that.
And it's not what vintage is about either.

It's those small variations and imperfections that make it sound fuller, kind of.

Also part of analog consoles like SSL 4000, each channel sound a little different. Waves NLS plugin try to emulate that too.

Running Polybrute on Wild setting it becomes over the top a bit, in my view.
But since stored with each preset what you choose it can be an asset in some cases, an effect even.

But don't use it often, since PolyUnison is such a cool feature. Each voice is a little off, and making voices spread and do unison as far as there are voices left is a favourite. Sound incredibly rich.

Tim Shoebridge did a review of his Moog One, and told about this oscillator compensation Moog introduced. Oscillator became lifeless, you heard directly as he turned it on. So he ran it without, since his unit was not problematic like some out there having serious tuning issues in lower range as I recall.

Inconsistencies is like a spice, too much and too little is equally bad.

[Trancer]

Thank you for your answers and opinions.

Totally agree, Arturia excellent service.

The Polybrute keyboard, sorry, but compared to that of the Virus ti2, it's really crap, given the price, it's unacceptable.

Regarding the tuning problem, totally agree with kritikon.

It is possible with current technologies to make a real controller to stabilize the tuning.

The approach is a bit stupid.

Either we do analog that we assume the manufacture or we do digital that sounds as analog as possible.

Here doing analog and controlling it digitally is nonsense, not really of interests.

[FapFilter]

it's not?
fully analog also means: no MIDI (though of course CV) and no patch recalability, so there is always just one patch available: the one where the knobs are currently set.
of course these are not absolutely necessary, but still i'd call these quite substantial for the general modern workflow

[zerocrossing]

Also, one big reason synth companies are still producing synths with VCOs is because they're trying to emulate that vintage sound, and there's a pretty big demand for synths that closely replicate the sound, vibe, and experience of vintage analogs (spend 5 minutes on Gearspace and you'll see what I'm talking about). Personally, I like my analog synths to have modern conveniences like stable oscillators with the option to introduce slop/instability and could not care less how closely a modern Prophet or Moog resembles their 40-year old predecessors, so I'm with you kritikon.

I’m not sure what this conversation is about, the PolyBrute really doesn’t go out of tune. Maybe if you have extreme temperature changes, but not for me. (65-75°F)

[cryophonik]

Yeah, my point got a little lost by bad placement in the disussion. I’m not talking about the Polybrute going out of tune, but it was more just a general tangent in response to this:

It makes me wonder a little - do these companies do it deliberately to try to imbue a bit of the myth and vintage ethos into their modern synths? Fool people into believing they've got something really classic because it has age old quirks in it? Quirks that don't have to be there.

[lfm]

It is possible with current technologies to make a real controller to stabilize the tuning.

The approach is a bit stupid.

Either we do analog that we assume the manufacture or we do digital that sounds as analog as possible.

Here doing analog and controlling it digitally is nonsense, not really of interests.

There is plenty "digital" in any modern synth.
Even VCO's are digital in the sense that a processor throws a number to a D/A converter when a key is pressed that in turn produce a voltage to oscillator chip.

Calibration of tuning is creating a table which number is producing which pitch and saved away. In polysynths one table for each oscillator.

Processor can even save away temperature in unit together with a table to pick a calibration table for current temperature if so.

All ability to save presets is digital technology. Even original Prophet 5 had a Zilog Z80 8 bit processor to do that.

Envelopes are digitally controlled too. LFO's are mostly digital all the way.

Calling a synth "analog" is usually that signal path from an oscillator chip, through filters and out is analog.

Then there are diversities how oscillator waveforms are created, wavetables or DCO or VCO. But filters and signal path from there has to be analog, but you probably call wavetable hybrid technology and DCO and VCO analog.

Wavetable would not be dependent on temperature, otherwise some adaption to warm up is there in any synth. I'd say of the three I currently have Polybrute, Prologue-8 and DeepMind-6 are very, very stable.

Prologue probably need 20 minutes to be stable, since you have third oscillator that is digital and if using FM-modulation too makes it's obvious need some more minutes to stabilize. The digital is perfect from start.
But Prologue tuning calibration takes 5s if wanting to play earlier after power up.

Polybrute maybe 10 minutes and ok to play, but don't save new preset until 30 minutes or so.

DeepMind is DCO so can play fine from power up and presets sound as they should.

But have fun with your VA synth if this is not acceptable to you.

All "analog" synths have small imperfections. You do not qualify yet to starting to call developers "stupid" and "nonsense". And calling Polybrute keybed "crap" you really have to try one before making a verdict. The keybed on Polybrute will not set you back a fraction of an inch in your musical journey.

But read and learn and you will find your way. Get a used Nordlead to start with maybe, then go to DCO based like DeepMind or Sequential REV2 depending on budget. Eventually you will appreciate VCO based and why people pay so much more for Sequential Prophet 6 or reissue of P5 - despite imperfections or more because of imperfections. Life is imperfect.

Everybody just about was impressed when CD's came and the digital way got rid of imperfections of vinyl. No static pops, rumble from turntable and flutter and such.

But then with compressed stuff like MP3 and portable players the difference was massive hearing a vinyl again.
- is this how it sounds?
- wow
So many artists today do vinyl, also because harder to duplicate probably. Despite having to really keep it clean and replace needles now and then.

Crap, this was long again.....most importantly, have fun and enjoy exploration....life is journey.....

[Trancer]

Thank you very much for your feedback and very complete answers.

I just want to say that considering the price, it is unacceptable to have an unworthy or crappy keyboard it's just the word that changes, unworthy means the same thing but more smoothly.

Faced with the competition and the sorry price, the keyboard is mediocre.

Regarding the mismatch, comments collected on the opinions of people using it and sellers.

Very lucky for you if the mismatch is relatively stable.

Now, we buy knowingly.

It is true that I am of the air vst / digital, I like the analog but the imperfections that it generates are not for me.

On the other hand, I intend to deepen the subject, because really fascinating.

If there was only mismatch, the Polybrute would be mine.

But frankly the keyboard ..

Here I am not insulting.

I tried the Polybrute for three hours in the store, so I was well aware of the quality of the keyboard.

Regarding stupid and nonsense, nothing insulting, in the context.

I'm just saying that it's scandalous to sell a machine at 2500 euros with a keyboard unworthy of this price.

It's a really low-end keyboard.

As already said put your hands on a Virus ti2 and you will know what the word quality and excellence mean.

[_leras]

Controversial maybe - but there is something that doesn't quite click for me with the tone of this synth. I'm quite gutted actually, as otherwise it looks like the best poly ever.

In my quest for a poly I think I prefer:
UDO Super 6 - though maybe too sweet/perfect sounding?
Novation Summit - great spec, sounds great on bass an mono sounds... Maybe I just need a mono of this synth
Sequential P6 - trade off on the different models
Minilogue XD - very nice neutral, but flexible tone, though no keyboard... only 4 voices

But for now I think I can live with software for poly... nothing quite grabs me yet. My savings for one may eventually go to a small eurorack or an SE3X instead...