What is analog sound? Examples plz

[vurt]

both are quite magickal if you think about it
music from shaping electricity or from code??
it's quite amazing really. that is all.

[HAL76]

I don’t think this is still true. My PolyBrute is more capable than almost any analog emulation I can think of. Even Diva lacks a third envelope that really comes in handy on my ATC-X.

But in the end they'll complement each others.

Agreed. I don’t know why this always has to become such a pissing contest. I suspect that some feel embarrassed that they can’t tell the difference so to make themselves feel better, they aggressively dismiss the premise.

The PolyBrute already fails when it´s about generating own waveforms. And where are the layers? Think of the MSoundfactory plus a channel of inserts with some awesome FX. How should an analog HW synth compete with these powers

But really - I don´t even think of those if I just want to make one of those classic synth sounds. Why should I? I love the Jupiter 8 Saw pads just like I can´t live without my 90s style layered pad sounds made of well selected complex waveforms that I can breed for years in the digital domain without reaching an end.

Analog vs digital is lastly just like arguing about genres of music. There are some like Metal or Trap that do absolutely not touch me - but I am liberal enough to live with that and old enough to know that everything changes, even my preferences.

[Unaspected]

Had written a proper reply but Ctrl stuck and then I hit something that killed the browser window.

F*ck. I wrote a whole response and accidentally deleted it.

Thread is cursed.

[j wazza]

Why does digital have to sound like analogue? I don't understand the mindset. I just want things to sound good...

So turn up the number of unison voices and play with the unison detune and spread until they don't sound thin and flat. Job done...

i completely agree that things dont have to sound analog, digital can sound great too, it depends what sound you want and what music you make, for 80s synthwave you need a bit of an analog sound but for dubstep you probably want digital
if something sounds a bit harsh i find an analog or VA filter smooths it over very well, but so can digital eqs, theyre all good tools to have with their own characters
VA is always going to be judged compared to real analog but even VAs can have their own unique character that is different from any analog hardware

we were just trying to define what analog sound is vs digital sound, it doesnt mean everything has to be analog

i already named some digital sounding synths, another is uvi falcon, even its 'analog' oscillators sound digital to me, but in a nice way, i like them. i dont mean the uvi vintage synth samples btw. meldafactory is one that has what i see as a stereotypical digital sound

i think even with unison on something like serum it still sounds a bit flat to me

[zerocrossing]

I don’t think this is still true. My PolyBrute is more capable than almost any analog emulation I can think of. Even Diva lacks a third envelope that really comes in handy on my ATC-X.

But in the end they'll complement each others.

Agreed. I don’t know why this always has to become such a pissing contest. I suspect that some feel embarrassed that they can’t tell the difference so to make themselves feel better, they aggressively dismiss the premise.

The PolyBrute already fails when it´s about generating own waveforms.

Is this a typo? I don’t understand what you’re talking about. Of course the PolyBrute generates it’s own waveforms.

And where are the layers?

I put them somewhere… I’m sure they’ll turn up. In the meantime, it seems irrelevant to have layers when a synth can completely morph between two entirely different presets. A second layer would really be a bit much.

Think of the MSoundfactory plus a channel of inserts with some awesome FX. How should an analog HW synth compete with these powers

I don’t have to think about MSoundFactory… I have it. I also have MXXX, which I can put on the PolyBrute’s signal. The PolyBrute competes because MSoundFactory sounds very digital. I don’t mean that in some pejorative way. I think it sounds very good. However, if you’re looking for the sound of an analog poly, it sucks. Maybe you’re never looking for an analog poly sound, like BONES. That’s fine, but throwing it up as an example of “powers” is silly. It’s like we’re having a conversation about compact cars and you tell me that they can’t compete with your F-150 in terms of pure torque. But bringing up something like RePro would absolutely be appropriate, because it’s trying to compete on the same playing field, and it clearly doesn’t have the same level of features as the PolyBrute does.

But really - I don´t even think of those if I just want to make one of those classic synth sounds. Why should I? I love the Jupiter 8 Saw pads just like I can´t live without my 90s style layered pad sounds made of well selected complex waveforms that I can breed for years in the digital domain without reaching an end.

Analog vs digital is lastly just like arguing about genres of music. There are some like Metal or Trap that do absolutely not touch me - but I am liberal enough to live with that and old enough to know that everything changes, even my preferences.

That’s all I’m trying to say. I feel like people wander into this thread like I’d wander into a wine aficionado forum and start declaring that all red wines taste the same and then later admit that I don’t really care about wine at all and I’m more into cocktails. (Which for me is true.) If you don’t think there’s something to “analog” sound and you are 12 years old and like to make anal jokes, well I’m here to say that you’re wrong. That doesn’t mean that software doesn’t get close enough for you. That’s fine. Maybe you’ve been in a touring industrial band for so long that you can’t hear over 8 kHz any more. It happens.

[vurt]

[zerocrossing]

I think in the end, we're confusing "different" and "better". Of course every synth is different but I don't subscribe to the belief that any one synth is intrinsically better than another, just because of what it is. I am always confident I can get whatever I need from whatever synth I have in front of me. What it almost always comes down to is how much effort one thing might require over another, not which will do the job better.

I read this as, “I honestly don’t care that much about how a synth sounds.” You’re like my brother. He’s had the same Yamaha ROMpler since forever and he doesn’t even think about getting anything else or anything different. He’s just focused on something else, which is fine, but you make the mistake of thinking that your perception is like everyone’s.

And your mistake is feeling like you get to dictate your perception as fact

First off BONES later admits that he doesn’t really care that much about the character of a synth that he uses. So we’re starting there. Second, how else am I supposed to navigate the world? Don’t we all believe that our perceptions are true?

I noticed that I posted great examples of analog sound and not a single comment has been made about them. I could also go find the video where Starsky Carr goes through all the Model D emulations and an original Model D. I think I will.



If you can’t hear the difference between the actual analog synth and the emulations in that video, then I’m going to have to keep believing that my perception is fact, because it’s pretty damn obvious.

[melomood]

In your mind you posted great examples

[vurt]

well i posted a great comment about how amazing both analogue and digital stuff is, when you think about how either works! not a single comment in agreement, you bastards!

[BONES]

It depends on your approach. See, I’m also like you, in a sense. When I’m working on a song, I tend to work fast and the general vibe and arrangement is the most important thing.

I'm not really like that at all. It generally takes me 6 months to be happy with a song and in that time I'm likely to swap synths in every part. And it's not about one part not being right, it's about wondering if it could be better and that's where a lot of happy accidents come out, almost in defiance of my expectations at times. That's why I think a lot of the restrictive thinking I see around here - an analogue synth is for this, a wavetable synth is for that, an FM synth is for the other thing and ne'er the twain shall meet - is so wrong-headed. I use what works and I try not to have any pre-conceived notions about what that might be. Yes, I have my "go-to" synths but they are usually starting points and are often replaced by the time I get to the finished piece. I also have my favourites, which I try to work into songs wherever I can but I'm not a slave to them. I'm a total whore and I'll use whatever does the best job.

But when I’m doing my instrumental improvisation, it’s a different story. There’s no lyrics and a lot of the composition is harmonic, rather than melodic, though it’s always a mixture. Then, subtle tonal differences really do make a big difference. But if you don’t do music like that, then you probably don’t really notice or care, which is fine, but to answer your question as to whether or not it’s “worthless,” it isn’t.

But the thing is that I don't hear it at all, which makes it seem like the Emperor's New Clothes to me.

... but obviously you’re way outnumbered on this one, so perhaps you’re missing something. You’re like a colorblind guy yelling about how unimportant red is.

Maybe around here but in the wider world, which is surely the ultimate context for all our music, it goes unnoticed. And at the time, everyone was happy to throw away their MiniMoogs for something better and who held on to their Jupiter 8 once the D-50 came along? Nobody did because there was nothing special about that old sound. It's something that has been manufactured since, born of a mix of nostalgia and a desire to emulate our heroes.

I honestly don't think it's real at all. All the magic I want from a SEM or an Odyssey is right their in the plugins. And that magic is important to me, I couldn't imagine using bx_oberhausen or Knifonium without TMT switched on or using Obsession with the "Analog" knob at less than 50%. I want that fuzziness between voices, I want all that subtle detail. The better emulations deliver it in spades and it has allowed us to make much better music than we were capable of a decade ago. But I don't think there is any more of that in the real thing than there is in those emulations. I mean, when you've got Tom Oberheim himself endorsing GForce's 8 Voice emulation, you have to think it's close enough to perfect that no-one will ever notice.

Here’s a question to the naysayers: If there’s nothing to “analog sound,” why is it so sought after and copied?

Nobody is suggesting there is nothing to it, just that the magic isn't exclusive to Curtiss chips. And, of course, like MPE it isn't anything you need in every part of every song, It's something that has a place and can be handy here and there, like unison and portamento.

Dune is one of my favorite modern software synths. Why did the developer add a bunch of analog modeled filters? Why did he do Obsession?

I can answer that, it's a challenge for Rich that he revels in. If you give him any piece of hardware, he'll want to emulate it for you, just because he can. It also helps that he makes good money from doing it these days, too.

Why is there a bx_oberhausen? Diva? Legend? Just chasing a trend?

To a degree I think that's just what it is. Otherwise why not do what Dave Smith, Tom Oberheim and Moog are all doing and make something new that builds on those legacies? Why make Monark when you could have made something more like Subsequent 37? The answer is easy, a straight MM emulation will sell better.

Why is it a trend?
... Things become known as “classics” for a reason. There is some sort of intrinsic and timeless character and quality to them that makes them endure.

Except they didn't really "endure", did they? In 1986 I literally couldn't give away a TB303. It's like classic/vintage cars, their popularity has absolutely nothing to do with how good they are because the fastest car in the world from 1960 couldn't beat a base model Corolla in a drag race or around a track. Old cars don't go, they don't stop and their recirculating ball steering is lifeless and horrible. But lately cars from the 60s have been going for record prices at auction. They might be desirable but they are not good. Same here.

I hope BONES never actually experiences it, because it really is quite a pain in the ass, and quite expensive, but once you’re hooked, you’re hooked.

Been there, done that and I have no desire to repeat it, thanks.

Please don’t tell me that your plugin can match it, because I have tried them all and bought most of them, and none come close.

As I said the other day, that's just setting them up to fail. If I went the other way and put up example of softsynths your analogue synths couldn't match, it would be a slaughter, whereas the plugins will get close enough that nobody would notice.

F*ck. I wrote a whole response and accidentally deleted it.

Welcome to my world. Because I mostly do this at work, I often press "Submit" and close the tab before I realise that it didn't post because there was a newer post in there.

Anyway, the gist of it is that analog wasn’t abandoned because of the sound, it was for various other financial and feature reasons that no longer hold water, not because people didn’t like the tone of analog synths.

Yeah but the thing is none of that was important enough to warrant keeping the old stuff, was it? The lack of a filter didn't stop anyone from buying a DX-7. In fact, a big part of the appeal was that it didn't suffer from all the foibles of analogue synths. And whilst your point might hold true for a MiniMooog, it doesn't for a TB303.

Nah. Really big sounds are digital while you have to spend lots of time to make your analog sounds complex.

I don’t think this is still true. My PolyBrute is more capable than almost any analog emulation I can think of. Even Diva lacks a third envelope that really comes in handy on my ATC-X.

How many voices of unison on your PolyBrute? Because bx_oberhausen can have 32 of 'em, all stacked as neatly as you like.

if something sounds a bit harsh i find an analog or VA filter smooths it over very well

Whereas I use the filter, especially analogue filters, to make things even more harsh.

VA is always going to be judged compared to real analog

Only by small-minded fools.

I noticed that I posted great examples of analog sound and not a single comment has been made about them.

Some very nice sounds in there, for sure, but nothing that I don't think I couldn't emulate well enough in software, except maybe for the creamy overdrive on that very first sound, which we can call the exception to prove the rule.

If you can’t hear the difference between the actual analog synth and the emulations in that video, then I’m going to have to keep believing that my perception is fact, because it’s pretty damn obvious.

Off to the movies, I'll listen later.

[zerocrossing]

In your mind you posted great examples

My mind is the ultimate intelligence in this universe.

[zerocrossing]

well i posted a great comment about how amazing both analogue and digital stuff is, when you think about how either works! not a single comment in agreement, you bastards!

I apologize. I’m so trained to argue on the internet that I forgot I should also agree from time to time.

[ghettosynth]

well i posted a great comment about how amazing both analogue and digital stuff is, when you think about how either works! not a single comment in agreement, you bastards!

I apologize. I’m so trained to argue on the internet that I forgot I should also agree from time to time.

I'm not convinced that this is the case and I would like to see your data on this.

[BONES]

If you can’t hear the difference between the actual analog synth and the emulations in that video, then I’m going to have to keep believing that my perception is fact, because it’s pretty damn obvious.

Sorry, he lost me just 1:20 in, where he shows the Model D with two oscillators clearly not in sync, versus 5 VSTi that clearly are in sync. But I persevered into the second test, where the Model D is clearly louder and the comments he makes aren't anything like what I'm hearing. e.g. He says the Mini-V sounds close but to my ears it is the furthest from the others, although it is closest in volume. Then, at about 5 minutes, he says the softsynths sound like samples that just stop, where the Model D has a "squelchiness" to it that they lack. Well, sorry, but they all sound exactly the same as the Model D to me, except MiniMonsta, which is miles out. He also says that it depends on what he's using to listen, which should tell you even more about how totally irrelevant any differences really are.

I flipped through the rest of it but it's the same problem all the way through - he's not trying to decide which one sounds best, it's all about which one sounds closest to a synth that I've always thought sounded like shit, since I first played one in 1982. And that's what's so f**king stupid about it all - there is no magic sauce, there are just as many bad sounding analogue synths as their are good ones, probably more. ARP's Odyssey isn't amazing because it's analogue, it's amazing because the engineers who created it poured their heart and soul into it and all of that can be translated into the digital realm. Imagine what might be achieved if our modern software engineering geniuses put all their effort into something new and amazing, instead of trying to slavishly reproduce shit from 40-50 years ago?

[chk071]

Regarding the FM examples in that video: I wasn't successful in replicating the "vowel" filter FM sound you can hear in this video:



I tried with Diva, Monark and Model 72, but, no luck. In all of 'em, the resonance doesn't seem to do exactly what it does in the real thing. Sounds so smooth and pleasant in the original.