Any science to explain the “weight” or “3D depth” of hardware audio vs software that some people claim?

[Uncle E]

Insert Gigachad image.

[werp]

The depth is definitely there with guitar (valve) amps vs digital simulations.
The unfortunate fact is that in order to get a valve amp to a level that delivers that magic depth (somewhere around 96 Db), I can manage about two and a half minutes of it before Mrs Tinnitus starts losing her rag...

[ghettosynth]

"Vintage amps sound better because their internal circuitry is mostly hand-wired with a greater attention to detail."

I think that settles it.

https://www.homemusicproducer.com/why-d ... nd-better/

[werp]

"Vintage amps sound better because their internal circuitry is mostly hand-wired with a greater attention to detail."

I think that settles it.

https://www.homemusicproducer.com/why-d ... nd-better/

a computer controlled soldering system doesn’t sneeze in the middle of performing a soldering operation…
The above article may apply to mass produced amps though I suppose.

I recently acquired a high end, high gain 50W tube amp by Fender whose electronics are PCB mounted. There were only 300 ever built though. The Fender guys sold it through their ‘Pro’ shops with virtually zero marketing so hardly anyone knew what it was or what it was capable of.
I much prefer it to my 90W Mesa MkV (which I may sell).

[Uncle E]

It’s as good as the person who designs the PCB. PCB’s have layers and there can be crosstalk and noise between them. Also, the simpler the circuit or the larger the board, the less this is a factor. Old Sequential Circuits PCB’s were massive and super simple.

[ghettosynth]

Old Sequential Circuits PCB’s were massive and super simple.

They also had interesting characters on the pc boards that would help mediate the crosstalk. Or so I've been told.

[BertKoor]

I believe that my explanations have been quite clear. By all means, throw your most difficult questions at me and we'll see who understands what.

I don't need to ask you a question. Either you're just having fun, or the DK-effect is strong in you.
And no, DK is not Donna Karen.
If you're here typing just for the fun, then please use smileys such as or to make that clear. Irony and sarcasm don't translate well online. I don't keep a list of habitual trolls, perhaps I should...

You dismiss sub-sample effects on depth and weight far too easily.

Oh, I DO have a question for you! What is the definition of "depth and weight" in the context of audio? Can it be measured objectively for instance? Does that also apply to mono signals, which in the core most synths are?

Then here you just gave another demonstration of what the depth of your knowledge on the subject actually is:

A 1/2 watt resistor is about 1/2 inch in length and about 1/8 inch in diameter, give or take. Since the atoms may decay along any path within the material, we don't know how long this path will be. It could be many many miles before reaching the terminal node of the resistor.

Oh brother, the atoms decaying thing again. You do need to elaborate on that, there are several types of these. Which one do you mean?

Or shall I try to educate you a bit? Are you actually listening or just having fun?

Anyway, an electric current is a flow of electrons, not atoms. Atoms are rather fixed, especially in metallic structures. The electrons coming out of a piece of wire are not necessarily the same ones that were put in by the current supply. Think of it more as a wave like with domino stones, travelling at the speed of light. An electron hops over to the next atom. Since now there is a surplus, one electron wants to hop over as well. Chance of that being the same electron is one in something (depends on how many electrons are in the outer-most ring of the atom where it happens)
So while electrons are constantly moving at the speed of light and travelling great distances, it is a well established fact that (ignoring negligible wire capacitance) a current increase/decrease on a wire of short length (less than an inch) is instant and without a slew rate or attack/decay effect.

An M1 still sounds like crap today.

That did not stop loads of people making hits with it, earning millions. Why you think the M1 Bright Piano is an often searched for sound? Yes, I hate it as well. But still...

[BertKoor]

Someone much smarter and more accomplished than me explained it like this:

Capacitance builds up in wires bent at sharp angles. Through hole resistors all have 90 or 180 degree angles. Surface mount resistors have none.

I wonder at which wire gauge and at what frequency this becomes a real-world issue with audio. Apart from that I cannot picture how 180 degrees angles are possible with wires (suggestion: try visualising it yourself, make a drawing, then check the angle on the drawing with a set square / geodreieck)

At university I did some digital electronics experiments. There was a clock source delivering pulses at a variable rate, and a digital counter IC incrementing on each pulse, both interconnected with standard patch cables. This worked well up to some hundred kHz. When revving up the clock to tens of MHz range, it fell apart. Not because the counter was not designed for such rates (it was up to the task according to the spec sheet) but because of the capacitance of the relatively fat clunky patch cable. Had we used lighter gauge wire with less capacitance, it would have worked fine.

So you need to put things in perspective. Yes, there is a measurable effect. But is that relevant in the context? Wire capacitance is a real problem in digital circuits which operate at mega/gigaHz rates. Not so much in audio which is limited to 100 kHz at best.

[DJ Warmonger]

Oh, this thread.

My theory: Analog circuitry operating at continuous time can represent the phase relationships between sounds with arbitrary detail, while discrete-time digital domain cannot. And it's the phase (or delay) that describes the character of room reflections, or any 3D space.

[FigBug]

This thread is useless without sound examples. Can somebody create the most basic patch that shows the phenomenon and record a simple riff. Then recreate the same patch in a few more synths and play the same riff? And say theses ones have "it" and these ones "don't".

I don't see how everyone is arguing what the cause is when we don't even know what we are supposed to be listening for. No idea what "weight" or "3d depth" is even supposed to mean and now Google searches just return this thread.

[melomood]

I would but I've heard YouTube & Soundcloud both take ten pounds off when you upload

[ghettosynth]

This thread is useless ...

We HAVE a WINNER!

[melomood]

Winner winner,chicken dinner

[ghettosynth]

I would but I've heard YouTube & Soundcloud both take ten pounds off when you upload

Correct, you might as well just flush all of your girth right down the toilet. You can't use youtube and science in the same sentence, not when we're talking about the purity of analog.

[Uncle E]

Apart from that I cannot picture how 180 degrees angles are possible with wires