Syntronik 2 Discussions

[Teksonik]

Or...video game m-12 arp that takes 2.6gb

Yes I'm not quite understanding the decompression ratio. Seems like it could be about ten times the actual size of the PAK file.

So it's decompressing the sample files while it's streaming them?

There are only three options each for the Preload Buffer and Buffer Multiplier settings.

[LoveEnigma18]

While IK Product Manager can be improved, just like anything out there, the current version works pretty well and I have had absolutely no problems with downloading, installing, and using the products. So I am not sure if putting the blame on IK makes sense.

I'm not sure putting the blame on the end user makes sense either especially after you said that you had to make manual adjustments to the install paths.

No, I did not make any adjustments to the install paths whatsoever. If my comment across like that, please excuse me.

I was just going by this:

I changed the default location of library content during installation to a common one and make sure to use "Install to..." when installing a new library/update from IK Product Manager.

So at some point you made manual changes to the install path. Product Managers are supposed to prevent the need for such manual adjustments otherwise they are failing at managing your products. Even the individual sample packages that can be downloaded and installed outside of the Product Manager should work without manual adjustment from users. Otherwise they are failing as well.

No, I may not have been very specific in my comment there, but what I meaning to say is that during my very first IK Multimedia product installation, I chose to install it to a different folder/drive than the default drive. Then, all the subsequent installations have been either automatically going to that or I just need to make sure to use "Install to..." option and provide the content folder location path after which it downloads and installs in that folder.

The only thing I have done after that is to move the entire content folder as a whole to a different drive to deal with space issues and simply updated the path in settings of respective products and then doing a full rescan.

What could be improved in IK Product Manager is to be able to set the default content path (just like download location) as it is with Native Access. This might make "Install to..." unnecessary, or if still needed, it should not be hidden like it is now and the user should be made to select the path for installation before downloading. If you simply click on Install as it is right now and have selected a non-default content location, chances are you might end up with content installations split at multiple locations and then these problems can happen.

I don't see any point to contact support here. The delay might just be disappointing and pretty sure they won't say anything different than what's already discussed so far. Rather you can fix it as I suggested and move on. Anyway, hope you will be able to sort it out soon.

[Teksonik]

during my very first IK Multimedia product installation, I chose to install it to a different folder/drive than the default drive. Then, all the subsequent installations have been either automatically going to that or I just need to make sure to use "Install to..." option and provide the content folder location path after which it downloads and installs in that folder.

You don't see any reason to contact IK support about a 100% reproducible bug? Ok whatever.

I'm not going to "fix" the issue by using a workaround. I'm going to work to help IK fix the issue for everyone who doesn't want to do the work the IK Product Manager or the individual installation files should be doing right now.

The whole point of a Product Manager is that you shouldn't have to jump through hoops to make it work.

I've explained the issue in great detail including screenshots. If you don't get it by now then there is nothing left for me to say.......

[LoveEnigma18]

There is nothing wrong about the bold parts you highlighted. Don't you get the options during installation to select where you want to install your stuff, especially huge libraries? Nothing different here.

Sorry, but it's mainly you and maybe a couple other guys who have been jumping through the hoops. I have the exact same Product Manager and products and I don't see any issues at all. Smooth as butter here and that's why I was trying to help, but I guess you want to continue with your approach of trying to solve this.

[Trensharo]

Is it Bndlab or Sonar? Both VST versions load for me in Bandlab.

I've also gotten crashes in FL Studio so that would tend to indicate it's not a DAW issue but an issue with Syntronik 2. I don't remember ever having similar issues with Syntronik 1 going back several years.

It seems to be related to Multis but the crash yesterday was caused by a single layer patch although with an edited preset.

I suppose I should report it to IK support but that's such an unpleasant process and I have little faith they'll actually be able to find the cause of the crashes.

I'd suggest everybody try the free Syntronik CS version to check stability on your system before committing to purchase.

I think there's lots of funky programming in the frameworks and elsewhere with IK stuff (ex. Studiophonik patch translation). This is especially true with their instruments using FL Studio. I just live with it; dealing with support would waste too much time. I will add that when some of the instruments bug out/crash now they don't take down FL Studio completely so I can continue working or save before I exit the DAW.

IKM Plugins crash and freeze DAWs more than anything else on my machines. Both of them. And both Cubase and Studio One, among others. SampleTank, Syntronik, etc.

I actually skipped the Group Buy and replaced the IKM Stuff with iZotope and Arturia. That's how bad the stability is.

They are extremely laggard with updates, as well. Can't count on problems being addressed with them.

[Opil]

I noticed a huge bug with the filer section and/or filer envelope of Syntronik 2, with some presets in V1 and V2 on some of the 22 "classic synths" while everything is fine and the sound is different for the same presets played with Syntronic 1.

ex: Take the "Boomy square" preset of the SH-V:

-Try to modify the filter envelope, cut off, resonance...=> no effect, no filter and the sound is so different from the same preset played with Syntronic 1 (it is more obvious in the low notes C0,C1...)

-Try all the possibilities (lpf,bpf...) of the 7 filters, slope/slope and modify the filter envelope, cut off, resonance => sometimes it's the cut off, sometimes the resonance, sometimes both that have no effect, sometimes you just can't choose the slope (the slider stays locked) while it's available in Syntronik 1

-Try to save a project with the "Boomy square" preset of the SH-V (without modifying it), close and reload your project, go to Syntronik 2, already there is an asterisk on the name of the preset, which means that it has been modified, go to the editing panel (the front of the synth) and there from bpf it has changed to lpf

I have seen the same type of problem on SH-V, SAM, Noir, T-03...so far. It always has something to do with the filter section, the envelope I've only seen it once.

So, advice to those who had version 1 don't uninstall it!!! While waiting for it to correct

And those who have only version 2 of Syntronik test the filter and report to IK support because only for the SAM, the presets Syntronik 1> synth bass: Fat Resonant Bass, Feeder, Fingered Bass, Flanged Round Bass = BUG of the filter (I did not test the others)

Scandal, don't hesitate to make tons of noise when you contact the support THE FILTER SECTION IS VERY IMPORTANT!!!

[Teksonik]

There is nothing wrong about the bold parts you highlighted. Don't you get the options during installation to select where you want to install your stuff, especially huge libraries? Nothing different here.

Yes but I don't change the options especially on my studio computer which only has a single drive and always will.

I always allow plugins to install their content wherever they want because the developer should know the best place to locate them. That goes for all plugins not just IK plugins.

I always install the plugin .dlls in a custom location but I never move the content. That system has worked for me for over two decades.....well except with IK at least in this case.

Again there is no point in having a Plugin Manager that doesn't work as it should or manual install files that don't install properly.

I have the exact same Product Manager and products and I don't see any issues at all.

That's because we probably have different products installed installed over different periods of time. I've owned Sampletank since version 1 (and a ton of other libraries like Sonik Synth and Miroslav) and Syntronik since early version 1.

My current IK install package goes back over four years when I had my current DAW built and did a fresh install of everything.

I just installed Sampletank 4 CS (because ST3 is no longer in the Product manager) and although it will load ST3 Multis it wants the sample content to be in a different location. For example an ST3 Multi wants Sonik Synth samples in Sampletank 3/Imported Samples while ST 4 wants them in Sampletank 3/Samples. Once I manually move the samples the multis will load.

Over time IK has broken version compatibility. ST 4 will load my ST3 Multis but it doesn't load them correctly. Syntronik 2 will load Syn 1 Multis but it won't load some of them correctly. The Arps are turned off and on and on and on.

Please understand that "I don't have a problem" does not equal there is no problem. Again we all have different installs going back over time.

I was trying to help, but I guess you want to continue with your approach of trying to solve this.

I appreciate your attempt to help but I don't want a workaround, I want IK to come up with a solution. That's probably not going to happen given their history but it's worth a try.

I know how to fix the issues here but that doesn't mean everyone will and I'm trying to help others from going through the same thing. I could simply copy all the sample files from where IK installs them to the samples folders outside of their respective sub-folders where Version 2 presets for Version 1 plugins expect them, not where Version 1 presets for Version 1 plugins want them. But that would double the size on disk and it would be a silly workaround not a fix.

There is a bug. Doing a workaround will not fix that bug. It's as simple as that. IK may not fix it or even acknowledge it either but hell it's worth a try.

Anyway I've spent a considerable amount of time over the last couple of days with Sampletank 3 and 4, Syntronik 1 and 2, the Product Manager, Custom Shop, even installed Modo Drum CS and I only have one word to say about it all.....

Arrggghh

IK instrument software can be maddening with one issue after another for anyone who is using them for more than just preset machines. Just one little quirk after another when you start digging in deeper.

But having worked with IK software for the better part of two decades I knew that going in so I'm still happy with my entry into the latest Group Buy. 17 for the price of one at this point is a great deal despite the inevitable quirks and issues. Helping IK to solve or mitigate those quirks and issues seems like a worthwhile endeavor despite it's a low probability of success.

I will give a shout out to whoever does the TRacks plugins for IK as I've never had any issues with them going all the way back to the version that came on a CD. They sound great and are rock solid. Couldn't live without them.

[zzz00m]

We will extend the Syntronik 2 Group Buy to the end of the month once the participant count hits 2,000 so please spread the word and let's get there.

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[DarkStar]

Yes but I don't change the options especially on my studio computer which only has a single drive and always will.

I always allow plugins to install their content wherever they want because the developer should know the best place to locate them. That goes for all plugins not just IK plugins.

I always install the plugin .dlls in a custom location but I never move the content. That system has worked for me for over two decades.....well except with IK at least in this case.

And I do the opposite . Let the software installers use the default folder and make the sounds library installers use the folder I select.

I just installed Sampletank 4 CS (because ST3 is no longer in the Product manager) and although it will load ST3 Multis it wants the sample content to be in a different location. For example an ST3 Multi wants Sonik Synth samples in Sampletank 3/Imported Samples while ST 4 wants them in Sampletank 3/Samples. Once I manually move the samples the multis will load.

I ado not see that here. Both ST4 and ST3 uses the Sonik Synth samples in L:\IK Multimedia\SampleTank 3\Imported Samples\Sonik Synth\...

Over time IK has broken version compatibility. ST 4 will load my ST3 Multis but it doesn't load them correctly. Syntronik 2 will load Syn 1 Multis but it won't load some of them correctly. The Arps are turned off and on and on and on.

Confirmed, and annoying. I am keeping ST3 and Syn1 installed.

IK instrument software can be maddening with one issue after another for anyone who is using them for more than just preset machines. Just one little quirk after another when you start digging in deeper.

Agreed - have you tried the Folder view in ST4- it takes up to 40 seconds here to show the folders for a library. Or, has anyone ever edited Zones in ST4 (or Syn2)?

[Trensharo]

I always allow plugins to install their content wherever they want because the developer should know the best place to locate them. That goes for all plugins not just IK plugins.

That's completely impractical. If we're talking about Scaler 2's 800MB Sound LIbrary, sure... Let it install in the default location.

However, Total Studio 2 MAX + SampleTank 4 MAX is like 375GB (give or take a few) of Bulk Content Storage used. It's unrealistic to expect a large percentage of users will want to install that - never mind bundles larger than even this (Komplete Ultimate, HOOPUS, etc.) - into the default location.

The default is ALWAYS the system drive because developers cannot expect any other drive to exist in the end user's system.

This is why most Content Installers prompt you for an installation location fairly quickly when you run them (IKM, Independence Pro, etc.), or the vendor has a setting in the application manager to set an installation directory before you even install any content (Native Access, UVI Portal, etc.).

Being able to handle content being stored in a non-default location is one of the most fundamental things of developing a virtual instrument like this.

In any case, one issue is that these libraries take up more space than they need to. I see the Philharmonik 2 library is 24-Bit/96k audio. So, it could be that they are basically wasting a ton of space by unnecessarily recording at 96k. Or perhaps the compression isn't as efficient.

[lajosuti]

I always allow plugins to install their content wherever they want because the developer should know the best place to locate them. That goes for all plugins not just IK plugins.

Firstly, most plugins want to install their content to the main drive with the OS. So in the past with the HDDs you had your OS and your samples loading from the same drive? These are hunderds of GBs, how big harddrive did you have in the past? How long did it take before tear and wear took it down?
Wouldn't it be more logical to keep the OS / some apps on a drive, synth, pop samples on the next drive, orchestral samples on another drive, and if you run out of space, you don't have to buy a new SSD and reinstall your OS just because you allow plugins to install their content wherever they want?

Secondly, if the option is supported, then we should be able to use it and expect it to work. If the option is not supported, it shouldn't be available.

[Teksonik]

I always allow plugins to install their content wherever they want because the developer should know the best place to locate them. That goes for all plugins not just IK plugins.

That's completely impractical.

No it's completely practical here. That's the way I've done it for many many years and that's the way I'll continue to do it because it simply works well for me. Moving content around willy nilly is more likely to cause problems than prevent them. This is from over two decades of experience with modern music software.

I'll always have a single large drive as the C drive on my studio system because it does nothing but run music software.

I have two drives on this system and it's a pain in the arse to me but do whatever works for you.

The point here is that allowing IK Multimedia content to install exactly where it wants should not cause problems. Period.

Firstly, most plugins want to install their content to the main drive with the OS. So in the past with the HDDs you had your OS and your samples loading from the same drive? These are hundreds of GBs, how big harddrive did you have in the past? How long did it take before tear and wear took it down?

I have always had a single large drive in my studio systems. I've never had one fail but I have had a motherboard fail.

If you're worried about "wear and tear" on your drives then uninstall Windows 10 right now. It will grind away at your drives like nothing else if you pay attention to what it's doing.

Wouldn't it be more logical to keep the OS / some apps on a drive, synth, pop samples on the next drive, orchestral samples on another drive, and if you run out of space, you don't have to buy a new SSD and reinstall your OS just because you allow plugins to install their content wherever they want?

No it's not logical to me to have multiple drives on my studio system. Like I said I have two drives on this system and don't like it at all.

Having to decide "let's see, this content goes to the D drive and this goes to the E drive and this to the F drive..." is illogical to me. More drives equals more fail layers.

When it comes time to decide where the actual plugin .dll goes, good installers will read the registry key and install to my custom plugin folder outside of any program folders. With those that don't read the key it's easy enough to point them to my custom folder. That's the problem, not all installers read the registry key and some want to install to a Steinberg folder I don't have or need or Program Files/VST Plugins etc. That can get messy.

Secondly, if the option is supported, then we should be able to use it and expect it to work. If the option is not supported, it shouldn't be available.

Well you're making my point. Of course every option should work especially the option to allow content to install where the developer wants in its default location.

The main point here is that IK sample paths can get wonky over time even if you allow them to install where they want and that should not happen.

The problem seems to come with having multiple versions of IK plugins like Sampltank 3 and 4 with legacy content going back to ST1 or 2, Syntronik 1 and now 2, changes to the License Manager now Product Manager, the Custom Shop etc. You get to the point where products start looking for the same sample content in different locations.

Going back to the reports I made earlier in this thread, just saving a Version 2 preset from a Version 1 Syntronik instrument will cause the sample path to be changed and the saved preset will not reload.

Anyway I still haven't received a reply from IK "Support" so as always it's probably going to be "it is what it is" with IK software. Just have to accept it I guess....been that way for years.

[Teksonik]

I do not see that here. Both ST4 and ST3 uses the Sonik Synth samples in L:\IK Multimedia\SampleTank 3\Imported Samples\Sonik Synth\...

Here Sampletank 4 wants the Sonik Synth content in Samples not Imported Samples.

ST4 051322-1.png

If I move the content to the location shown in the error message the multi will load fine. Sampletank 3 will load the mutli but it wants the samples in "Imported Samples".


Again I think it probably has to do with what instruments are installed over the years and when.

But again the main point is I've always allowed IK content to install exactly where it wants so if something got broken it's on their end.

It's the only case I've had where allowing content to install where it wants has caused problems and that's with over 600 plugins, some with just preset files, some with skin files, support files, samples, etc. IK has simply over complicated things over the years and cares little about version compatibility.

On an unrelated note has anyone been able to get a version 1 instrument that has been added during this GB to work in Syntronik 1 ?

I purchased S1 very early on some time in mid 2017 and never upgraded to the Max version or whatever levels were added in that time so was missing for example the VC3S and the M-Poly.

They're both installed, registered, and functioning fine in Syntronik 2 but when trying to load them in S1 they keep asking to be registered which I have done over and over but they still won't load.

Not a big deal since they work in S2 but it's just another example of the inevitable IK quirks that can come with having a long install history on the same system.

[Trensharo]

No it's completely practical here. That's the way I've done it for many many years and that's the way I'll continue to do it because it simply works well for me. Moving content around willy nilly is more likely to cause problems than prevent them. This is from over two decades of experience with modern music software.

1. I could have guessed you'd have been one of those "two decades of experience in yadayada" people because only that section of the market still believes in these urban legends.

2. This makes little sense, although it's certainly your prerogative to do that. It's sample content. The software scans the directory and then creates an SQLite Database that it uses to reference things - this library is always stored in your user documents folder. This is like saying you have to put your My Documents Folder on C: because it might mess something up - this is nonsensical. The only thing that matters is that the directory structure of the library content remains in-tact, which is easily done by simply not messing with things within those directories. You can move them anywhere. It does literally nothing, and there is literally no risk in doing so. Even Kontakt Libraries will relocate with 0 issues, and they all come with their own individual installers. Native Access will just update the Content Path in the registry when you relocate them.

The scenario you're proposing only matters with software with hardcoded paths in the code, and no one does that with Sample Libraries and Sample Players that has libraries spanning tens to hundreds of gigabytes in size.

The only "issue" one can run into is trying to launch the plug-in without a drive plugged in if you have the content on an external SSD.

Where it's located is not the issue, anyways. The issue is that the content payload is ridiculously in size, many people have more than just this one content bundle (as that would leave many people with huge gaps in their library toolset). They own other virtual instruments/sample libraries, and often the content size is fairly large for those others, as well. It gets to a point where it is not economically feasible to lump all of that stuff on the fastest storage on your PC (which can be very expensive to upgrade on models where this must be done at point of sale), when it will force you to pay huge premiums increasing the storage capacity of that drive at twice the cost of SATA3 storage, which is more than fine for most of that stuff.

In an M1 MBP, it costs $600 to go from a 512GB SSD to a 2TB SSD. Or, you can buy a 2TB external T7 for $229 on Amazon. In a 15" M1 Pro MBP it's $1,200 to go from 512GB to 4TB - which can be a legit need if you own something like Total Studio, Komplete Ultimate and EastWest HOOPUS/BBCSO Pro.

Sorry, but $370-900+ literally thrown away du to an irrational fear of things "messing up" because you still believe some historical urban legend that software development has long evolved beyond?

Depending on what you own, you may end up in a situation where you literally need a 4TB internal drive in your laptop, or something.

Again, for components that need to be in certain locations, there are mechanisms for protecting that - that includes, never giving the option to alter the install location and installing them to %ProgramData% or %ProgramFiles% (or the macOS equivalents), which are hidden by default from the user.

I have two drives on this system and it's a pain in the arse to me but do whatever works for you.

Is your computer literacy really that low?

I have 4 Drives in my PC.

One is labeled Native Instruments, and that's where Native Access installs content by default, one (used to be) named "IK Multimedia" and that's where the SampleTank 3, 4, Philharmonik and Syntronik 1/2 content was installed. Once you do the initial install, all subsequent content installs will automatically suggest that location. I could literally keep my finger on the Enter Key and SampleTank expansion content would install to the correct location. The initial install location is written to the Registry, so future installs reference it.

There is literally 0 management involved in this. It manages itself. The only thing you have to do, is Label the Drive and set the content installation locations when you initially install the product (or in the Vendors Manager App - Native Access, UVI Portal, etc.).

Same for my other drive, labeled "EastWest." The Installation Manager just installs everything to the proper location once you set that in the settings.

I'm really just perplexed as to how any of this can be difficult or "hard to manage"...

For anyone who has used a PC this long. It was far more involved 20+ years ago.

Again, your money, your machines... Your prerogative. You can do what you want. However, you're projecting exaggerations as if they are rationally-backed factual information. The fact that you believe this stuff and state your two decades of working with music software, as if it is some endorsement, is horrifying.

[Teksonik]

No it's completely practical here. That's the way I've done it for many many years and that's the way I'll continue to do it because it simply works well for me. Moving content around willy nilly is more likely to cause problems than prevent them. This is from over two decades of experience with modern music software.

1. I could have guessed you'd have been one of those "two decades of experience in yadayada" people because only that section of the market still believes in these urban legends.

I should have guessed you'd have been one of those who ridicules someone else for doing something that has worked well for them for decades. "It's not an "urban legend". It's what has worked for me. If you're unable to accept that fact then that's not my problem.

In an M1 MBP, it costs $600 to go from a 512GB SSD to a 2TB SSD. Or, you can buy a 2TB external T7 for $229 on Amazon. In a 15" M1 Pro MBP it's $1,200 to go from 512GB to 4TB - which can be a legit need if you own something like Total Studio, Komplete Ultimate and EastWest HOOPUS/BBCSO Pro.

Sorry, but $370-900+ literally thrown away du to an irrational fear of things "messing up" because you still believe some historical urban legend that software development has long evolved beyond?

WTF are you rambling on about about? I have one drive in my studio system that was built in mid 2018 and it only has a little over 600 gigs of content on it even after all this recent Syntronik content. I have "thrown away" nothing. I'm not someone who hoards gigs and gigs of content and I'm also not someone who would use a laptop as a serious music production machine. If you are then you have my sympathy. I on the other hand know how to keep a lean and clean system. Again maybe some day you'll learn that skill as well.

You're jumping to a lot of conclusions here. You might want to get your facts straight before having an unhinged rage rant at someone.

Is your computer literacy really that low?

No it's really that high that I can work efficiently with only one drive. I've owned at least one computer since 1985 so maybe that's the difference. I know how to work efficiently. Perhaps one day you will too.

I have 4 Drives in my PC.

I'm sure someone is terribly impressed. I on the other hand am not.

I'm really just perplexed as to how any of this can be difficult or "hard to manage"...
For anyone who has used a PC this long. It was far more involved 20+ years ago.

Oh you're perplexed all right. At no point did I say "hard to manage" so you can stop putting words in my mouth. I said having more than one drive is a pain in the arse to me. I like having everything on one drive. If you don't...I could not possible care less and I certainly wouldn't rage post at you over it.

How can allowing a developer to install content where they want be hard? Click next,next, install. Done. You're needlessly over complicating things but hey if that's the way you want to work then by all means party on.

If you wish to judge the size of your manhood by the number of drives you need then more power to you.

Again, your money, your machines... Your prerogative. You can do what you want. However, you're projecting exaggerations as if they are rationally-backed factual information. The fact that you believe this stuff and state your two decades of working with music software, as if it is some endorsement, is horrifying.

Again the fact that you lack basic reading and comprehension skills is horrifying.

But hey you do you. If you think you need 20 hard drives to stay organized then by all mean go for it.....

....Anyway back on the subject of Syntronik 2. I have finally received a response to my support ticket and it's like talking to a brick wall. This has been my experience with them in the past as well.

But we're at 18 free now with 56 to go to the next level. If we reach 2,000 by the 19th they will extend the group buy. It's at 1644 right now so there is a fighting chance.