Paradigm shift - appreciating Bitwig

[Fraggle]

I stopped recording jazz in the late 1990's - sold my saxophone 20 years ago - I don't miss it - All my music since has been in the sphere of atmospherics / sound design / generative installation art - - I have found this a very refreshing change from chord sequences and traditional methodologies of music making (which I did from 1980 to about 1997).

I can't speak to whether Bitwig is good for recording a band or the like - just that coming from Ableton its been a paradigm shift - freeing and enabling - I don't think jumping ship from Ableton 2 years ago it would have felt so good , because a lot of the stuff that really helps me has been put into bigwig in the last year - note Fx - note grid etc..

Horses for courses.

[EnGee]

I'm currently using Bitwig or Live much more than Cubase or S1. I find it quicker to capture my ideas and test how they fit with what already there.
Also, the whole workflow is in result simpler. For example, a big plus for both Bitwig and Live is to be able to insert synths in the drum cells. Also, folding in the piano roll can make life much easier with some instruments like DrumComputer.
Both Bitwig and Live are excellent for me, but I can't choose only one, so I'm going to keep them both and update both

[Dionysos]

I think Bitwig is used primarily for experimental and generative sound, which is the antithesis of composition. Isn’t that the point of it?

"Primarily" is just your interpretation. You can ignore Bitwig's "experimental" features just fine and still find it to be a better designed DAW than most others.

[Fraggle]

I think Bitwig is used primarily for experimental and generative sound, which is the antithesis of composition. Isn’t that the point of it?

"Primarily" is just your interpretation. You can ignore Bitwig's "experimental" features just fine and still find it to be a better designed DAW than most others.

Yes - he seems to imply that composition refers to methodologies like song writing - which it does - but to compose (for me) means to realize a musical idea - and that can be circular polyrhythmic- generative controlled randomness , classical stave based or any other approach.

Bitwig is made beautifully for the things I want it to do - maybe it is also awesome at other types of musical approach , but I haven’t yet tested that.

[DJ Warmonger]

Well, to each his own. You can create experimental sounds and patterns and then use them for classical composition, modern composition (let's say, EDM) or add extra flavour on top of otherwise common track.

[Fraggle]

An interesting result of moving to Bitwig and finding it so useful is that the kilohearts version 2 that I had been waiting and waiting on for the last 7 months is now far far less necessary -

The only tonal area Bitwig is a little bit short on is physical modeling - though the resonators , comb and comb inside the grid, go a long way down that sonic path.

So when kilohearts finally announce V2 on Friday , rather than being excited, I will be a casual observer

I own all their stuff (but not the soundbanks) - it was useful in Ableton, but I have not felt the need to install it into Bitwig.

[jonljacobi]

The term hater is bandied about quite liberally by the OP. So is paradigm. A strong belief that runs contrary to yours is not hate, and changes in personal perception are not paradigm shifts.

[machinesworking]

The term hater is bandied about quite liberally by the OP. So is paradigm. A strong belief that runs contrary to yours is not hate, and changes in personal perception are not paradigm shifts.

I think it's safe to say that there's a liberal subjective use of those terms here. In other words a strong belief that runs contrary to yours is generally a prerequisite for being a hater, and for them personally it was a paradigm shift, but yeah in the end it's a bit hyperbolic to use those terms. What are you going to say instead though? any Mac to PC story someone says or visa versa is going to create controversy, and any drastic change in perceived creative output is going to seem like a paradigm shift etc.
--------------
I've been using Live more than Bitwig, because it's strengths are more than the areas it's weak compared to Bitwig for me personally, but I only occasionally dabble in generative stuff, and mostly that's done on audio files here.

[EnGee]

Personally, I don't like generative stuff at all! I don't like chords/scales helpers as well! So all those 'wizards' don't inspire me or really help me in my music making. I even begin to write my own drums patterns by carefully putting the Kicks and snares in the piano roll instead of using those pro ready patterns. I just find it easier to approach what inside my head by doing it all myself.

Technically, Bitwig has a nice balance between simplicity and usability. Yesterday I've spent a great time editing what I was playing and exploring the stage comes after writing some of the ideas. So, mostly was midi editing and arrangement inside the arranger. Things I like a lot is switching the editing tools and also the Track/Clip view in the piano roll.

I miss tools from Ableton Live, but then when I'm inside Ableton Live, I miss things from Bitwig! So, I think it is a draw between those two fine DAWs. I'm enjoying my time with both of them. These days I'm spending more time with Bitwig though.

[machinesworking]

Personally, I don't like generative stuff at all! I don't like chords/scales helpers as well! So all those 'wizards' don't inspire me or really help me in my music making. I even begin to write my own drums patterns by carefully putting the Kicks and snares in the piano roll instead of using those pro ready patterns. I just find it easier to approach what inside my head by doing it all myself.

Technically, Bitwig has a nice balance between simplicity and usability. Yesterday I've spent a great time editing what I was playing and exploring the stage comes after writing some of the ideas. So, mostly was midi editing and arrangement inside the arranger. Things I like a lot is switching the editing tools and also the Track/Clip view in the piano roll.

I miss tools from Ableton Live, but then when I'm inside Ableton Live, I miss things from Bitwig! So, I think it is a draw between those two fine DAWs. I'm enjoying my time with both of them. These days I'm spending more time with Bitwig though.

I think you’re confusing songwriting tools or “helpers” with generative music, which is more about applying rules to chaos, or what I referred to, granular synthesis techniques to maybe even non musical audio to turn chaos into something like music. Just like learning a new scale, being forced out of your comfort zone can help move things along.

It’s interesting to me how differently we all treat the composition stage, my other main DAW Digital Performer has a die hard classically trained musician base, even an arpeggiator to some of them is cheating.
I’ve definitely taken some found sound and put it through granular synthesis and forced tones out of chaos etc. but I’ve never used a drum loop or percussion helper in a track, no ideological reason just always gravitate towards writing it from scratch myself…

[EnGee]

I don't think I'm confusing them! I just gather different things together!

Generative music is generated by a computer or a system, right? You don't have a direct control or you can't anticipate what is there. You might just have some directions for this randomness as a source for the music. right?

I don't know really, but I'm more of a classic type. I like to write from my head. My feelings are the source not random.

[Tj Shredder]

Generative music is generated by a computer or a system, right? You don't have a direct control or you can't anticipate what is there. You might just have some directions for this randomness as a source for the music. right?

Wrong
(As had been explained before…)

[EnGee]

So by whom is generated? A ghost?

[gentleclockdivider]

The only tonal area Bitwig is a little bit short on is physical modeling - though the resonators , comb and comb inside the grid, go a long way down that sonic path.

You can’t make physical modelling and karplus strong in the grid , not when it was released and not now .
Simple example
Karplus string guitar , you convert the midi pitch data to frequency and convert that to time to control a delay line .
Route output of delay line back to itself et voila , a simple karplus strong algo .
Want some damping for the frequencies , no problem just insert a 1 pole lp filter in the feedback loop .
Now you have perfectly tuned delay line , whose pitch is controlled by midi .
In bitwig the result will not be what you expected because it can’t handle 1 sample feedback loops .
The feedback loop is audio buffer dependent (milliseconds ) and these will introduce additional spectral content in the feedback loop that you didn’t ask for in the first place .
And this goes for building phasers ( all pass filters ) etc…
Sure , the grid has modules that already do that for you ( which are coded in c++ , but so does max .
For low level building and even true modular with non audio buffer dependent feedack , it falls short .
That’s why I prefer reaktor

[vurt]

I don't think I'm confusing them! I just gather different things together!

Generative music is generated by a computer or a system, right? You don't have a direct control or you can't anticipate what is there. You might just have some directions for this randomness as a source for the music. right?

I don't know really, but I'm more of a classic type. I like to write from my head. My feelings are the source not random.

generative music was made before computers were being used widely for music.
it's just a method of composition that is different is all
take reichs phase music, just a simple spoken phrase, nothing random, but by playing it out of phase with itself, generates new textures.
that's one simple example.

bowie and eno use it a lot. different method to above, but generative music in general.
it's not about pressing a random button and hoping!