How did it come to be major/minor instead of 7 modes?

[empphryio]

I recently have been watching all those David Bennett videos about music in lydian, dorian, phrygian, mixolydian. Quite annoyed I have been thinking major/minor with accidentals all these years.

[ReleaseCandidate]

Rameau has written his 'Treatise on Harmony' in 1722, by then the terms major and minor have already been in use (for the scales and the triads).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Phil ... ny.2C_1722
Modes 'disappeared' with the use of the equal temperament, so more or less around 1700.

[Vurniks]

To avoid a tritone, temporary alterations had to be used in the church modes. Like a B flat in Dorian. If that happens too often, you get D minor. I think that musicians got used to it. Et voilà, minor and major are born. Just my two cents.

[Farnaby]

More specifically, the major and minor scales allowed what is called 'functional harmony' to develop. This is the V7-I progression that underpins most music from at least 1700 onwards. The other modes don't allow for this fundamental chord progression/cadence because you can't construct it from the notes of the other modes.

[empphryio]

More specifically, the major and minor scales allowed what is called 'functional harmony' to develop. This is the V7-I progression that underpins most music from at least 1700 onwards. The other modes don't allow for this fundamental chord progression/cadence because you can't construct it from the notes of the other modes.

What do you think of the David Bennett videos that list a bunch of popular music that is in dorian, lydian, mixolydian and phrygian?

Are they missing functional harmony? He has a video for each and gives usually 20 or so examples.
Fir example: https://youtu.be/8hE3FAM9rVk

[empphryio]

Just to make clear, I'm not asking rhetorically. Or disagreeing. I don't know.

[trewq]

What happens when you lower the 7th of a C Major scale? You get the C Mixolydian scale (or the F Major scale if the tonic is switched to F).

What happens when you switch the tonic of F Major scale back to C, or the 5th degree? You get the C Mixolydian scale.

The video makes the distinction between a mode and the Major scale when the tonic remains the same, so a note has to change - except when it comes to the Ionian.

The V7, I for a Major progression is now the
I7, IV for the Mixolydian.

Hope that helps.

My degree is in IT, not music. So you guys check me on this...

[Farnaby]

I did say 'most music' not all music. Yes there is plenty of life in the old modes but as I said above you can't create a true V7-I cadence/progression in any other modes than the major (Ionian) and minor (more or less Aeolian). This is the basis of functional harmony.

The I7-IV progression for the Mixolydian is not the same thing (functionally). The point of the V7-I cadence is that it establishes the key (i.e. the I chord). If you go I7-IV in Mixolydian you haven't established the root of that mode.

[empphryio]

Thanks. In my own beginning attempts to use these modes I find my tonic doesn't stay put. So with mixolydian for example I try to keep C the tonic with the b flat and later on I find f has become the tonic (just f major). So then some people will argue the modes aren't important in part because when they do happen it's often only just for part of a song and thus not truly mixolydian etc anyway.

[Farnaby]

I suppose there will be an easy tendency to modulate between C Mixolydian and F major as they share the same notes. The difference between the two, as you say, is more to do with where the centre of gravity (or root) lies in the melody or harmony. This is slightly subjective of course, and there is no reason not to change it as the mood takes you.

[Vurniks]

What do you think of the David Bennett videos that list a bunch of popular music that is in dorian, lydian, mixolydian and phrygian?

I'm not going to delve into it, but as a retired music teacher I can tell you that a church mode in popular music is in almost all cases nothing more than major or minor key with a few temporary alterations. If you really want to hear a church mode, you will have to listen to some classics. Better still, listen to Ravel's Bolero and you will hear all 7 modes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVAs2KMqWho

[Farnaby]

I can tell you that a church mode in popular music is in almost all cases nothing more than major or minor key with a few temporary alterations.

I think the Mixolydian qualifies as an exception to this, as it is probably the prevalent mode in rock music.

[empphryio]

What do you think of the David Bennett videos that list a bunch of popular music that is in dorian, lydian, mixolydian and phrygian?

I'm not going to delve into it, but as a retired music teacher I can tell you that a church mode in popular music is in almost all cases nothing more than major or minor key with a few temporary alterations. If you really want to hear a church mode, you will have to listen to some classics. Better still, listen to Ravel's Bolero and you will hear all 7 modes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVAs2KMqWho

I can't find anything that confirms this to be true. Everywhere says C major with some phrygian it seems. Also David Bennett gives a much more convincing case that these modes aren't uncommon in popular music.

[trewq]

Perhaps many composers just select tonal centers without knowing what the modes are called.

I know about the modes, but i am mainly concerned with accidentals
Tonality is often just a result for me.

[Melkor]

The modes, when harmonized into tertian chords and progressions, have dodgy dominants.

Aeolian - Im7-vm7
Dorian - same
Phrygian - m7 and m7b5
Lydian - maj7 and maj7
Mixolydian - V7 and m7
Locrian - m7b5 and bMaj7

Harmonic minor was "created" in direct relation to this "problem"

Most "mixolydian" progressions in Rock that I hear, are actually Major, with a borrowed bVII7 chord in there.