Connecting 2 new synths. Advice please!

[Bass-penetrates]

Hello All

I am a relative novice to hardware, having produced music purely with Cubase initially, now Ableton and various soft synths.

Looking to get more hands on, I bought a basic Behringer midi controller, worked fine with a USB cable. Then a Roli seaboard. Worked fine again, with USB. Then I bought an Ableton Push 2. Worked fine via a single USB cable. However, my computer started having a few issues so I introduced a standalone sound interface. A Scarlett solo.

Fast forward a few months. I decide to spend my paycheck on a couple of hardware synths. Just some simple ones to dip my toe in the water. I buy a Bass Station 2 and a Modal Cobalt 8.

Stick the USB cables into my computer... Nothing. Lol. Spend a long time on the Internet reading conflicting advice. Finally I manage to get audio out of the Bass Station to a channel in Ableton. No midi though so I can't quantize what I'm playing. I also have managed to do the same with the cobalt.

What I realise is I need a new audio interface that will handle midi and audio. And some new cables probably.

I've done a lot of looking around and thought I could just upgrade to a Scarlett unit with more inputs/outputs.

However, Abletons website says I need a midi interface and an audio interface to connect a hardware synth. And the diagram they show on how to hook it up looks like its two different units, one for audio and one for midi. Other products make it sound like you can get all in one unit. But then only have one midi connection on them. I am so confused I just would like someone to tell me the answer.

Can anyone please recommend an audio device that would allow me to pick up midi and audio from both sythns, and use them in Ableton? And what cables I would need?

Many thanks in advance

[cryophonik]

Both synths have two-way MIDI communication over USB, so you should be able to set that up with your current interface, but yes you need an interface with more audio inputs to use both synths, and standard 5-pin MIDI ins/outs often work better than USB MIDI, so that’s a good option to have. Are you on a Mac or PC?

[Bass-penetrates]

Thanks for your reply!
I read on another site that the Cobalt didn't have midi over USB so thanks for confirming that.
I use a PC. So, I can plug both the BS2 and Cobalt direct into my pc via USB?
Then just use the interface for audio?

[Bass-penetrates]

Ah OK. Sorry I just reread your message. It would be good to get it set up optimally. I don't mind buying some midi cables to do it properly.

So, what would be a good interface for handling audio and midi of the synths?

[cryophonik]

Everything I’ve seen says that Cobalt 8 has MIDI over USB, so you should be good to go. Make sure that both synths are set up as MIDI control devices in your DAW.

As for interface suggestions, I personally use a couple of UAD Apollos, but I’ve used many MOTU interfaces in the past and they were great for both audio and MIDI.

[kritikon]

However, Abletons website says I need a midi interface and an audio interface to connect a hardware synth. And the diagram they show on how to hook it up looks like its two different units, one for audio and one for midi. Other products make it sound like you can get all in one unit. But then only have one midi connection on them. I am so confused I just would like someone to tell me the answer.

Can anyone please recommend an audio device that would allow me to pick up midi and audio from both sythns, and use them in Ableton? And what cables I would need?

As already mentioned. 5-pin DIN MIDI is probably the way to go. You can't daisy-chain USB for MIDI, though it's fine for 1 synth/controller and actually has some benefits. But now you have a controller and 2 synths - definitely 5-pin MIDI cables. You need 2 cables - 1 for MIDI in, 1 for MIDI out. Some companies make double cables connected together, which I like - stops the spaghetti getting as tangled.


Dunno WTF Ableton are talking about (out of their arse) because most people use a combined audio+midi interface. You CAN get just audio and just midi interfaces but that's a bit daft IMO. Get a combined one. Most units will have only 1 MIDI in + out, and the basic ones have 2 audio in + out, but you can spend as much as you want and get more audio ins/outs. 4 is not unreasonable.

BUT there are ways to use multiple synths with only 2 audio ins and save money - the more audio ins/outs you have on an audio interface the more expensive it gets. It's generally cheaper to get a 2in/out interface and a small mixer IMO. Or you can use a patchbay, which is what I do. I have a studio full of hw synths and I get by fine with a patchbay - the limitation of that is that you only get 2 audio ins at any time. If I wanted to play multiple synths at the same time I'd need to get a mixer - been mulling over that but TBH it's fine for me without, at least the way I personally work.

TBH I think you can put mixers on the backburner for now - maybe you'll need one down the track, but not essential now. Small mixers aren't expensive though.

As for what interface - there's a huge number out there. Personally I use the Steinberg UR22mkII. It's a simple 2 in/2out + MIDI unit. Quality is as good as most people need, doesn't break the bank and it can record up to 192kHz or something silly (which is complete overkill for most people and will suck up PC juice anyway). It's only up to 24bit so you might want to get something 32bit but again- not sure you'll notice the difference (won't cost much more though). The UR22C is 32 bit, and I guess it makes sense to get that rather than an older 24bit unit. You can spend daft money on things like RME but at your level that's also overkill and TBH you probably won't even hear any difference. Budget audio/MIDI units nowadays are on the whole v.good quality with not much between them.


Do a bit of research though - lots of units compete with the Steinberg ones. You're spoilt for choice.

[kritikon]

Forgot to mention about MIDI. You can chain multiple synths together via midi cables. That's exactly why you don't need multiple MIDI in/outs. The generally accepted norm is that up to 10 MIDI gizmos can be chained together, but you can use more easily. I used to have 11 chained up together with no discernable glitches, although an old OSCar specifically didn't like being last in the chain for some reason, but nowadays you'll have to look hard to find glitchy midi synths like that. For 2 synths it is NO problem to chain them together. You can set them both to separate MIDI channels so that they don't both play the same notes, and you record/play your different MIDI channels inside Ableton.

It looks something like this:
PC<->audio/midi interface (usually via USB)
interface MIDI OUT -> synth1 MIDI in
synth1 MIDI thru -> synth2 MIDI in
synth2 MIDI thru -> any other MIDI toys you get, ad infinitum

You set each synth individually to its own MIDI channel - I really can't think of any synth that doesn't let you do that. It'll either be within the global synth parameters or it might have its own MIDI page, or it'll be something really simple, like Behringer do with 4 sets of 4 pins at the back that you flip to set the channel.

[ReleaseCandidate]

You have to be aware that not all MIDI devices (synths) support MIDI through, so you may need either a dedicated MIDI through box (because your combined interface doesn't have enough MIDI ports) or more MIDI in- and outputs. That is why there is no reason to buy a combined interface, just buy a separate MIDI box and keep the interface you have. If you are on Windows you buy interfaces because of their drivers, they are the only thing that really matters - that's where RME is still miles ahead of all the others.
And if you use a mixer to connect your audio you can use (well, hear all your gear without a computer and only 2 inputs and outputs on your interface.

[Bass-penetrates]

Thanks guys. That's extremely useful advice and very helpful!

The whole midi thing isn't seeming logical to me yet. But I'm going to read your posts through a few times and I'm sure I'll get it!

Thanks for the hardware suggestions too!

[T-CM11]

I'd advise to just use USB midi until you have a specific reason for 5-pin DIN. In that case, I can recommend a second hand Midisport 4x4 or 8x8.

The cheapest way to get audio into your PC is a small analog submixer. (though patchbays aren't expensive either)
Me, I like to use VST effects live on my hardware synths, so I have an RME Fireface UC + Behringer ADA8200 (via ADAT) for 16 inputs/16 outputs. I use the outputs to route through external effects (e.g. The Evolver's stereo filter and delays).

Edit: If you'll never have more than 2 synths (used with mono output), that Steinberg interface mentioned is a good idea (better Windows drivers than Focusrite).

[kritikon]

It's an age thing. Once upon a time synths used to have MIDI in/out/thru. The out only sent out what was coming from directly playing that synth whereas the thru sent everything through to the next midi device in line which included CCs etc. Nowadays they tend to have only MIDI in/out, but the out generally acts as a thru also. There will be some synths that don't send thru but not many. You can fairly safely daisy chain all modern synths that have only MIDI in+out. I'd be pretty surprised if your Bass Station and Cobalt don't send MIDI thru via their MIDI outs.

As for drivers...yeah things like RME are known for their drivers but for mere mortals it's pretty irrelevant. A few milliseconds here or there won't affect what you hear or play. Almost all budget audio/midi interfaces nowadays have decent enough drivers. My Steinberg one is a few years old, is budget but performs solidly and reliably - I have NEVER had any issues with its driver EVER. I used to run an old Aardvark unit that had 10 in/outs and at the time was pretty fkn expensive - the Steinberg one performs just as well if not better. I actually wasted my money on having a fancy one. You can spend $1000 on an RME and unless you're a fastidious virtuoso with the hearing of a bat - you won't tell the difference. The rest is marketing. There's a lot of BS about drivers. What really matters is the quality of the audio conversion...and even budget ones all compete well nowadays. Yeah, if you're a pro studio, you want the best. But it's very fine margins and the more you spend, the smaller the incremental improvement. The quality of your room accoustics will FAR outweigh any benefits you get from doubling your outlay on fancy audio interfaces.

TBH there's an argument for just getting a digital mixer - it has AD/DA converters and can act as an audio interface. If it has midi then maybe it's better to get one of those. Not sure it's good use of money to buy a mixer for 2 synths though...

[T-CM11]

As for drivers...yeah things like RME are known for their drivers but for mere mortals it's pretty irrelevant. A few milliseconds here or there won't affect what you hear or play. Almost all budget audio/midi interfaces nowadays have decent enough drivers. My Steinberg one is a few years old, is budget but performs solidly and reliably - I have NEVER had any issues with its driver EVER.

You've made my point here: good drivers (I'm talking about Windows here) are very relevant. If your audio interface works great, it's because of good drivers or just sheer luck. I wasn't referring to latency, but that's an added bonus.

I have my own MOTU Ultralite Mk3 (+Windows, multiple versions even) story. Calling it "issues" would've be a big understatement.
Oh, and an old Tascam, smaller issues, but it never worked reliably on anything.

[db3]

If you want to keep it simple all you need is to do is connect your synths direct to your PC with USB or via a decent USB hub (MTT recommended) and to an audio interface with enough inputs for now and the near future. I have 4 synths connected to my Mac via an Elektron Overhub and all audio going into a Scarlett 18i8. BS2 and Cobalt 8 will work fine this way, and Cobalt has the added advantage of the Modal VST editor.

[kritikon]

I'd forgotten about USB hubs - actually that sounds the most sensible and cheapest option. Scarlett Solo is only one input? No problem for the Bass Station but it makes sense to get at least a 2-input audio interface as mentioned to use the stereo capabilities of the Cobalt. But you could easily upgrade to a 2 input audio interface and use a USB hub for the midi side of things, AND keep the price down.

[Bass-penetrates]

OK. Thanks for all the suggestions. I will probably go down the mixer or patch bay route in future when have more hardware kit. I'm hoping to go modular next. If I can get the basics working..!?

For now, I do already have a powered USB hub with 8 connections. It's the same type as the Elektron which I nearly bought after researching best solutions. This is what the behringer, seaboard and Push 2 go through. There are spaces left for the Bass Station and Cobalt. So, midi sorted!

The scarlet solo is powering my monitors and sub from the outputs on the back. But only seems to have the one XLR microphone style input on the front, one unlabelled 3.5mm jack and another 3.5mm labelled 'headphones'. I had got audio out of the Bass Station into Ableton by running an XLR to TRS out of the mono output on the synth into the XLR on the Scarlet. I opened up a new audio channel in Ableton and set monitoring to 'in' then I could hear the Bass Station and record its audio.

I can do the same with the Cobalt but as mentioned it will need to be stereo. So, am I looking for a cable which is double 3.5mm (one for the left out on the Cobalt and one for the right out out) on one end then a Single XLR on the other end that goes into my new audio interface? Or will the new audio interface have 3.5mm Jacks and I'll just use two cables?

Sorry for the basic questions. I am not good with cables that aren't USB.

I still have no clue how to marry all this up in Ableton so I can use the midi and audio of the synths together. Although I have just learned about a plugin in Ableton called 'External Device' and seen there are a few YouTube tutorials on that. So hopefully that's the way forward.

Thanks again for the suggestions! It's been a great help.