How to deal with fluctuating volume levels in a unison saw wave bass patch due to phasing issues?

[Erik_Lucas]

Hi there! I'm trying to create a unison bass patch with consistent volume levels. As you can see in the image attached, the volume levels fluctuate.

Any tips?

Screenshot 2022-05-29 114037.png

[CHOOS]

compression literally does that BUT! The problem is mostly in the lower frequencies.
If you compress the whole signal it will start compressing when the lower frequencies get too loud which lowers the higher frequencies too.
One solution is multiband compression.
Layering can help too. Using a mono saw for the sub region and high-passing the rest which helps when you make it mono as well.

Let me know if all this makes sense?

[Erik_Lucas]

compression literally does that BUT! The problem is mostly in the lower frequencies.
If you compress the whole signal it will start compressing when the lower frequencies get too loud which lowers the higher frequencies too.
One solution is multiband compression.
Layering can help too. Using a mono saw for the sub region and high-passing the rest which helps when you make it mono as well.

Let me know if all this makes sense?

Certainly does! I suspected it would be a compression solution. Thanks for the reply!

[imrae]

You understand that this fluctuation is fundamentally what unison does, right? When frequencies are nearby they slowly slip between constructive and destructive combinations to create "beating".

If you don't want the volume to fluctuate in some frequency range, don't apply unison to that frequency range.

"Fixing" this with compression won't restore the missing low-end, it will just turn up the other frequencies when the fundamentals dip.

[CHOOS]

If you don't want the volume to fluctuate in some frequency range, don't apply unison to that frequency range.

That doens't really make sense. The reason you want a supersay is because of the character of the sound. the "unwanted" side-effect of beating can be fixed. Especially with plugins like Soothe or DSEQ.

"Fixing" this with compression won't restore the missing low-end, it will just turn up the other frequencies when the fundamentals dip.

The multiband will compress only when the selected frequency range gets above the threshold. There's no missing low end. there's an abundance of it. And especially if you layer it like suggested above this problem will not be there.

Made a quick video explaining what I meant
https://rumble.com/v16m2di-supersaw-fix.html

[NAD]

Here's a cool trick you can do in some synthesizers: In Zebra for example I'll have a "supersaw" oscillator (i.e. a saw with a couple of detuned unison voices) and use the "fundamental" oscillator effect set to 0, and then add a non-super sine wave oscillator. I know in Vital you can do something similar by going in to the oscillator editor and just manually removing the fundamental. In fact you can remove as many of the lowest harmonics you like from the unison oscillator and just add them back with the second oscillator, and then only the upper partials will be phasing.

[CHOOS]

HiHi
That's what I did in the vid above on Ruble. But it's a good technique!

[NAD]

HiHi
That's what I did in the vid above on Ruble. But it's a good technique!

So you did! Good video! I'll add that by default Vital has stereo unison set to %100 which may be the reason that the sine wave peak wasn't jumping up and down in SPAN. As far as I can tell SPAN averages the right and left channels while s(M)exoscope is summing them. Also in the advanced tab in Vital where you go to bring down the stereo unison (which I personally think should be on the main oscillator panel) there's a handy visualizer which while in itself isn't necessarily more detailed than SPAN or (M)exoscope it still does seem to be fine-tuned to be quite useful for its purpose. (It's a shame though you can't keep it open while tweaking parameters in the other panels.) One last thing I should mention is that if you do want to have your supersaws panned super wide then it becomes very important whether you have an even or odd number of voices because with an odd number you get one voice dead center and with an even number you don't.

[imrae]

If you don't want the volume to fluctuate in some frequency range, don't apply unison to that frequency range.

That doens't really make sense.

The practical way to implement this advice is by layering higher unison harmonics over a non-unison oscillator - a method you also suggested. You do understand this principle at some level.

The reason you want a supersay is because of the character of the sound. the "unwanted" side-effect of beating can be fixed. Especially with plugins like Soothe or DSEQ.

Heavy compression changes the character.

"Fixing" this with compression won't restore the missing low-end, it will just turn up the other frequencies when the fundamentals dip.

The multiband will compress only when the selected frequency range gets above the threshold.

It's all relative. Another way of looking at it is that when some frequencies interfere constructively, other frequencies will be pushed down. Either way, volume fluctuations become timbre fluctuations. Multiband processing will change the range of those fluctuations, but give inconsistent results with changing pitch.

[CHOOS]

I get what you're saying but the whole point is to keep the volume fluctuations from being too much so compression is exactly what we want. We want the characteristics of the supersaw which at some point can sound exactly how you like and a second later can get too loud i a certain range. We then compress that range keeping the signal more consistent in a way which then keeps the character we want.
and when changing notes this shouldn't matter too much either. very big jump in octaves maybe but not in most cases whether melody or chords/
Multiband can also be more that 3 bands so it would exactly keep it consistent in the area's you want. Again especially with vst's like Soothe/DSEQ. You kan keep the characteristics you want from the uni/detune but not the volume fluctuations.

I think we agree with each other more than we disagree. Just giving my 2 cents

[imrae]

Sounds like we agree on the options/solutions, just disagree on the framing of the "problem"