CLAP... thoughts?

[Urs]

It's clearly the slippery slope fallacy, which is a non-argument. Repeating it over and over may be a nice distraction, but it doesn't change anything at all, except keep CLAP up in the news cycle. Ok, go on then, repeat the argument ad nauseam

[jamcat]

Microsoft has a history of making their own versions of open standards and making everyone conform to theirs.

Yes - I know. It's called "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_ ... extinguish

I can't see something like that happening with CLAP though.

I wouldn't think so either. But if Steinberg is half as evil as some have made them out to be, they could and they would.

[crickey13]

Except that Steinberg is clearly interested in taking VST3 in a different direction. Which is why CLAP is a thing to begin with.

Even assuming Steinberg were to make a move like this, it would be a concession and going back on their word.

If they were to make their own CLAP carbon copy involve a proprietary license, it would still be inferior to CLAP. If it were MIT like CLAP, then it would become pretty much the same thing and a win-win situation anyways.

[Biome_Digital]

Except that Steinberg is clearly interested in taking VST3 in a different direction.

What direction it that?

[crickey13]

What direction it that?

A non-VST2-derived one. Them being extremely legalistic about things certainly doesn't help either, not to mention their skepticism about MIDI.

[fmr]

I don't know if the Arturia story is true, but even if it is that's a completely different thing.

People poach snippets of code from similar projects and bring them into their already existing project all the time. Sometimes they do it shadily, sometimes they credit the source. If Steinberg wanted to "steal" some ideas from CLAP and integrate them into VST3, that would be a GOOD thing.

jamcat is suggesting that "big companies" create an entirely new project, that originated by copying an entire open source project, and then somehow become the "dominant strain", which I guess means more people start using the new copied version of the open source project, although I'm not a virologist.

That literally never happens. The only way it ever could happen, is if the new copied project was also fully open source and MIT licensed, or the community that had been using and contributing code to a fully open source and MIT licensed project would never even consider it an option.

And even if that ever happened, again, the license would have to be the same, but the project would have to be somehow measurably better, so again, that would be a GOOD thing.

This spectre of a "takeover" or whatever that jamcat is trying to raise is a complete straw man. Nobody cares who owns the code if it's open source and has an MIT (or similar) license. The best ideas and best maintained projects win, and that's the whole point.

^^^ THIS ^^^

[fmr]

DELETED

[koalaboy]

Diversity is a good thing. Collaboration is a good thing. Innovation is a good thing. Progress is a good thing.

Choice is a good thing. Freedom is a good thing.

All of the above good things, are what I can see CLAP is being built around.

If you don't care about it, you don't have to use it. Your world doesn't have to change and you can stay using all of your plugins you love and keep making music and not worry about any of this.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Just saw on IG that AudioThing is already testing a Clap build of at least Wires so they seem on board with the format. Don’t recall if they were on the original list.

[PieBerger]

Just saw on IG that AudioThing is already testing a Clap build of at least Wires so they seem on board with the format. Don’t recall if they were on the original list.

they weren't on the original list, but they definitely expressed interest in one of the many CLAP threads, so it's not surprising they have a test build in progress!

[trackbout]

Microsoft has a history of making their own versions of open standards and making everyone conform to theirs.

Yes - I know. It's called "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_ ... extinguish

I can't see something like that happening with CLAP though.

I wouldn't think so either. But if Steinberg is half as evil as some have made them out to be, they could and they would.

Ok I’m going to assume this is the specific Microsoft reference you were trying to make, even though Music Engineer was the one who shared it. Let’s take a look at Microsoft’s "embrace, extend, extinguish" strategy, and then try to figure out if it would be possible for Steinberg to "embrace, extend, and extinguish" CLAP.

Here is the first sentence from that Wikipedia page:

"Embrace, extend, and extinguish", also known as "embrace, extend, and exterminate", is a phrase that the U.S. Department of Justice found that was used internally by Microsoft to describe its strategy for entering product categories involving widely used standards, extending those standards with proprietary capabilities, and then using those differences in order to strongly disadvantage its competitors."

Did you notice anything strange about that sentence? It seems to reference findings by the U.S. Department of Justice. It's kind of weird that the D.O.J. is the reason we know the term "embrace, extend, and extinguish" isn't it? Why would they care about browser widgets?

Oh ya! Almost forgot, "United States vs. Microsoft Corp" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... osoft_Corp.

This was "a noted American antitrust law case in which the U.S. government accused Microsoft of illegally maintaining its monopoly position in the personal computer (PC) market primarily through the legal and technical restrictions it put on the abilities of PC manufacturers (OEMs) and users to uninstall Internet Explorer and use other programs such as Netscape and Java."

The only way Microsoft was able to "embrace, extend, and extinguish" anything, was by owning an operating system with 90% plus market share, and then forcibly installing their own apps and forcibly removing competing apps from everyone's computers.

In Microsoft's case, "embrace, extend, and extinguish" was the result of largely INVOLUNTARY adoption by developers and users of a Microsoft standard that had "embraced" an open standard.

In Steinberg's case, "embrace, extend, and extinguish", would require entirely VOLUNTARY adoption by developers and users of a Steinberg standard that had "embraced" an open standard, because Steinberg does not control everyone's computers.

Now that there is an open source, MIT licensed, more advanced alternative, this voluntary outcome is not within the realm of possibility. Unless, as has been explained many times, Steinberg makes its own open source, MIT licensed, more advanced standard, that wins on its own merits, which everyone would be perfectly happy to see. That seems to be the part you have not quite grasped yet.

It's apples and oranges. You will never see a "United States vs. Steinberg Corp". The two scenarios share literally nothing in common, because the relative leverage of the two companies are not in the same universe.

[biomechanoid]

I don't suppose anyone at all has already mentioned that clap is slang for a common sexually transmitted disease?

[fisherKing]

I don't suppose anyone at all has already mentioned that clap is slang for a common sexually transmitted disease?

a. it's been mentioned several times.

b. have you ever applauded something? that's called 'clapping'.

c. lots of word have multiple meanings.

d. is that really what you want to add to this discussion?

[BenfordLaw]

I don't suppose anyone at all has already mentioned that clap is slang for a common sexually transmitted disease?

a. it's been mentioned several times.

b. have you ever applauded something? that's called 'clapping'.

c. lots of word have multiple meanings.

d. is that really what you want to add to this discussion?

It having been mentioned several times means what, exactly? That is ISN'T highly relevant?
The name of this standard (or whatever it's called) is VITAL to its success. The word 'clap', when used in conjunction with just about any word that has anything to do with making music, normally means (to 99.9999% of the population, and to search engines) 'the noise you make when you hit your hands together'. So when searching for 'CLAP' and 'FL Studio', or 'Ableton Live', or 'DAW', etc.etc. you get back thousands of results to do with clap samples, or a clap VST that makes CLAP sounds. Do you not see how bad a name 'clap' is now? And in the U.K. it means 'sexually transmitted disease', as in 'He got the clap off that bird he slept with last night'.

The most important thing that needs to be done NOW is to CHANGE THE NAME. Otherwise it's going to cause endless confusion and waste literally millions of hours of people's lives if it takes off, as they search for 'CLAP' (the standard) and get results for 'clap' the sound made by hitting your hands together. How can any of you not see this? Have you never heard of branding? Or marketing?

And if you DON'T want to change the name, before it's too late and there's no going back (because it's become established and it would confuse people even more if you changed the name when millions are using it), why? Do any of you who still want it to be called CLAP know why you are clinging to such an inconvenient word, when it could be literally ANYTHING you want? It could be CLP, it could be anything, just not 'clap'.

Don't believe me, just go to Google and type in
'CLAP Ableton Live'
'CLAP FL Studio'
'CLAP synthesizer'
and anything else remotely music related you can think of.
You won't find what you are looking for, if you're looking for the standard that is 'CLAP'.

Do you not see the problem with this, Urs?

[glokraw]

Diversity is a good thing. Collaboration is a good thing. Innovation is a good thing. Progress is a good thing.

Choice is a good thing. Freedom is a good thing.

All of the above good things, are what I can see CLAP is being built around.

If you don't care about it, you don't have to use it. Your world doesn't have to change and you can stay using all of your plugins you love and keep making music and not worry about any of this.

Exactamundo!!! Even the Fonz recognizes the truth!