CLAP... thoughts?

[pdxindy]

So "Polyphonic modulation" is one killer, unique feature of CLAP that instruments should be able to take advantage. Are there any features like that [over existing standards] for effects processors too?

There is also Bitwig's Voice Stacking. Surge (CLAP) works with the voice stacking and it sounds like the U-he synths will eventually do so too.

Bitwig's FX Grid has voice stacking, so you can have stacked effects. So maybe CLAP FX plugins might be able to work with Voice Stacking too.

[mystran]

I would actually hope that CLAP does away with the strict distinction between effects and instruments anyway? That has always been a somewhat artificial limitation in VST, IMHO. Tagging a plugin as effect or instrument for organizational matters is fine - but that classification should hopefully not limit what the plugin can do?

Well, I can't see anything in the CLAP spec that would say you can't declare your plugin as "instrument", "audio-effect", "note-effect" and "analyzer" all at once. As far as I can tell, there's no "pick one" mandate anywhere, rather they are just "features" you can advertise and you can advertise as many features as you feel like.

So I don't think there's a "strict distinction" here at all. As far as I can see, if your plugin advertises itself as both an "instrument" and "audio effect" then the host can just put it into both lists? Meanwhile the fact that you can advertise what you can actually do means that if your plugin can only meaningfully work as an instrument, there's no need for the host to offer it in the list of effects and if your plugin can only meaningfully work as an effect, there's no need for the host to offer it in the list of instruments.

[koalaboy]

So I don't think there's a "strict distinction" here at all. As far as I can see, if your plugin advertises itself as both an "instrument" and "audio effect" then the host can just put it into both lists? Meanwhile the fact that you can advertise what you can actually do means that if your plugin can only meaningfully work as an instrument, there's no need for the host to offer it in the list of effects and if your plugin can only meaningfully work as an effect, there's no need for the host to offer it in the list of instruments.

Exactly. Just advertise the features, and then let the host decide how it's grouped (along with existing custom groupings, of course).

[EvilDragon]

Is that real-world usage? Would things like copy protection (iLok, cough) and/or resources being loaded (Arturia, cough) slow down the scanning in the real-world?

No. Scanning CLAP plugins (just like LV2 before it) is different from VST2/VST3, because it doesn't require constructing the whole plugin just to get the metadata. Instead metadata is being read from a specific point in the binary (if my understanding is correct) and just flat-out read as text. Without binding any resources that are needed for constructing the plugin. So yeah, doing stupid things like opening Arturia Service Center to "check for updates" when you're simply scanning for plugins (for crying out loud, people at Grenoble!) would not be the case with CLAP.

[Trancit]

The feature I would be interested most apart from which is already present:

Let me give the plugin a user name/categories the DAW reads even if the DAW doesn´t allow plugin renaming (like Bitwig)...

With VST2 it was easy... just rename the .dll and done...

I don´t know if some devs have taken drugs when implementing the plugins name/categories but there are some I really hate to use just because of the naming...
Waves would be a very good example...while I doubt that they will ever provide clap...

[mystran]

Is that real-world usage? Would things like copy protection (iLok, cough) and/or resources being loaded (Arturia, cough) slow down the scanning in the real-world?

No. Scanning CLAP plugins (just like LV2 before it) is different from VST2/VST3, because it doesn't require constructing the whole plugin just to get the metadata. Instead metadata is being read from a specific point in the binary (if my understanding is correct) and just flat-out read as text. Without binding any resources that are needed for constructing the plugin. So yeah, doing stupid things like opening Arturia Service Center to "check for updates" when you're simply scanning for plugins (for crying out loud, people at Grenoble!) would not be the case with CLAP.

Well, the .dll/.dylib is still loaded, so if a plugin really wants to do stupid things like check for updates during a scan, it's technically not impossible to do so... but on the bright-side, as a plugin developer you now get the choice, because you know whether the plugin was actually loaded or whether just the metadata was queried.

[koalaboy]

The feature I would be interested most apart from which is already present:

Let me give the plugin a user name/categories the DAW reads even if the DAW doesn´t allow plugin renaming (like Bitwig)...

That seems more of a DAW responsibility, to allow user renaming/categorisation.

[EvilDragon]

Well, the .dll/.dylib is still loaded, so if a plugin really wants to do stupid things like check for updates during a scan, it's technically not impossible to do so... but on the bright-side, as a plugin developer you now get the choice, because you know whether the plugin was actually loaded or whether just the metadata was queried.

Yeah exactly, you don't have that choice with VST, AFAIK.

[EvilDragon]

The feature I would be interested most apart from which is already present:

Let me give the plugin a user name/categories the DAW reads even if the DAW doesn´t allow plugin renaming (like Bitwig)...

That seems more of a DAW responsibility, to allow user renaming/categorisation.

Yep, fully agreed on this. That stuff should be handled by the DAW.

[koalaboy]

Maybe we need an open-source equivalent to NKS....

[ThomasHelzle]

Yeah, I think the border between Effect/Instrument and Midi device could be softened quite a bit but a lot of it already works with VST2.
In Bitwig you can mix and match them as you like on a single track in any order and it simply becomes a hybrid track that can deal with audio as well as midi and that allows for some interesting things.

One example:
On my electric guitar track I can first have an EQ to even the spectrum out a bit, next I put JamOrigin MidiGuitar to create realtime Midi from that, but I set it up so it is letting the original audio through as well.
After that I can have some Midi manglers (there are tons of those for VST2 already) that change the generated Notes a bit (create chords or change the octave, arpeggiators etc.).
After that I found NI Reaktor FX quite interesting with Prism FX loaded, which is basically played with Midi and modifies the incoming audio with it's modal bank (presets like "Ambient Bell" or "Shoom" work well with some adjustments).
After that I can have additional effects...

So yeah, if this kind of thing becomes even easier with CLAP in more DAWs, that could open quite some doors.

Cheers,

Tom

[aMUSEd]

Maybe we need an open-source equivalent to NKS....

Personally I think what we really need is for plugins to be designed with controllers and expression using controllers and keyboards in mind from the start, that don't just passively advertise to controllers what params are available for controlling but also interact with controllers to create the optimal param layout given the capabilities of that controller. Intermediate layers like NKS really shouldn't be needed, it's too clunky and creates a dependency on companies and users doing a lot of hard work in creating mappings and templates (and so much that can go wrong when plugins get updated). Maybe CLAP could make that possible?

[Urs]

Maybe CLAP could make that possible?

Yes. An extension for this is currently in draft state ("Quick Controls"):

https://github.com/free-audio/clap/tree ... /ext/draft

^^ those things are pretty mature, but they first need to get implemented somewhere (proof of concept) before they are promoted to official.

[Trancit]

The feature I would be interested most apart from which is already present:

Let me give the plugin a user name/categories the DAW reads even if the DAW doesn´t allow plugin renaming (like Bitwig)...

That seems more of a DAW responsibility, to allow user renaming/categorisation.

Yep, fully agreed on this. That stuff should be handled by the DAW.

Problem is: It isn´t!!!

What does it serves me if theoretical it would be the DAW´s job if they simply do not care??

Cubase... nope...just with wonky editing xml files...waves wasn´t possible
Studio One... nope... same story as with Cubase but a bit easier and works as well for waves
Ableton... nope... no way
Bitwig... nope... no way...
Logic... no idea but I guess...nope...

So all the big guys do not care at all...

against
Reaper...
FL Studio...
Mulab....
for instance...

So, as it is unlikely that the DAW devs will turn round and finally implement something like this and as the days of simple dll renaming are over it would be very nice to have a customization feature like this inside of a new plugin standard to be flexible for the future...

[Urs]

It would be a great feature for a DAW!