I own a few DAWs at this point and each one has a different approach to the Swing/groove workflow. Ableton uses Groovepools, Logic has both Swing/Shuffle and groove templates. Studio One does as well (with the added bonus that the grid reflects the chosen swing settings). Then there is Bitwig which has a pretty rudimentary shuffle workflow.
Personally my favorites are Logic and Studio One because I found them to be the most flexible. I do remember liking Reason's ReGroove to be pretty cool though I haven't played with it much.
Which DAW has the best swing workflow for you?
Which DAW Swings the best for you?
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- KVRAF
- 9146 posts since 7 Oct, 2005
Ableton Live.
Do other DAWs have the extract groove function?
Do other DAWs have the extract groove function?
Using: Cubase Pro 15, Reason 13, Tascam US-4x4HR, MODX6, DM12D, LaunchKey 49, Yamaha guitar(Pacifica 612v) and bass (BB234) and some virtual instruments and synths.
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- KVRist
- 115 posts since 11 Apr, 2022
In my opinion, there is no best DAW. Everyone chooses the one on which they work best. I use FL Studio 20 and as for me it is very good. Don't listen to anyone. It's up to you and it has to suit you.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1404 posts since 17 Oct, 2018
Yeah. You can do that in Logic and Studio One. I think FLStudio does this as well.
Studio One // Bitwig // Logic Pro // Ableton // Reason // FLStudio // MPC // Force // Maschine
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1404 posts since 17 Oct, 2018
The topic is which DAW's swing works the best for you. As in I want to have a discussion about what people think about swing in their favorite DAW and compare them to what other people like about swing in their respective DAWs. I wasn't trying to make this into a which DAW has the best swing thread.Pawel L wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:09 pm In my opinion, there is no best DAW. Everyone chooses the one on which they work best. I use FL Studio 20 and as for me it is very good. Don't listen to anyone. It's up to you and it has to suit you.
I think it would be nice to hear about how other folks use groove/swing in their music/DAW.
Studio One // Bitwig // Logic Pro // Ableton // Reason // FLStudio // MPC // Force // Maschine
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- KVRAF
- 9146 posts since 7 Oct, 2005
Oh I didn't know that S1 has it
I'll check that soon as I'm in the mood to learn it upside down.I also didn't know Logic has it, but I'll check it when I have M2 based Mac.
Using: Cubase Pro 15, Reason 13, Tascam US-4x4HR, MODX6, DM12D, LaunchKey 49, Yamaha guitar(Pacifica 612v) and bass (BB234) and some virtual instruments and synths.
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Andreya_Autumn Andreya_Autumn https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=553235
- KVRian
- 510 posts since 21 Feb, 2022
Following, cause this question really interests me too. 
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- KVRist
- 363 posts since 24 Jul, 2006
You made the foolish mistake of assuming people on KVR actually bother to read, rather than just kneejerk with their 'I love ... / I hate ...' reactions.apoclypse wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:19 am
The topic is which DAW's swing works the best for you. As in I want to have a discussion about what people think about swing in their favorite DAW and compare them to what other people like about swing in their respective DAWs. I wasn't trying to make this into a which DAW has the best swing thread.
I think it would be nice to hear about how other folks use groove/swing in their music/DAW.
But on the subject at hand, I still occasionally use acid to extract groove timing from things and then apply it to other midi sequences, it's a pain in the ass to do, and modern (v11) acid hasn't improved enough to make it bearable for every other aspect of production.
edit: oh, and FL's visual feedback of where notes will be moved to, and how the velocity will be modified makes it's 'groove quantize' feature the nicest to use out of the other DAWs I use.
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Andreya_Autumn Andreya_Autumn https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=553235
- KVRian
- 510 posts since 21 Feb, 2022
Here's a thought I've been carrying around. What if, instead of having a separate groove interface, the grid lines themselves could be moved around a little. They already do that when we dial in swing percentage right? Why couldn't they also do that to line up with other grooves. Then all the regular quantization/snap-to-grid functions could remain useful even when working with staggered/human/drunk rhythms.
Isn't it weird that no DAW developers have thought to do that? Think about it, when making a tune in some kind of staggered groove: Why do we have to first look at a symmetrical grid, and then open this weird second separate interface to fix the timings. Why can't we adjust the grid lines so they represent the music we actually want to hear?
Isn't it weird that no DAW developers have thought to do that? Think about it, when making a tune in some kind of staggered groove: Why do we have to first look at a symmetrical grid, and then open this weird second separate interface to fix the timings. Why can't we adjust the grid lines so they represent the music we actually want to hear?
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Andreya_Autumn Andreya_Autumn https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=553235
- KVRian
- 510 posts since 21 Feb, 2022
Just to clarify. When it comes to swing grooves, we're good IMO. The MPC-style swing-% control with moving grid lines is good for me. I find nothing inadequate about that. And most DAWs allow this nowadays don't they?
But swing is just one example of a staggered groove, there are many others. Samba 16th notes for example. Like the first few seconds of this:
There must hundreds of other examples within almost every music style.
For ALL those other options, we have "Groove Tools" or whatever. Instead of the moving grid lines. Many DAWs have such functions in some form, but for me personally every single version I've seen of this idea seems clumsy compared to the moving grid lines. It just seems like that idea should logically be extended, and it's surprising to me that I've never even seen this discussed I guess?
I imagine the challenge might lie in the interface design. There should be some sensible constraints to how the user can move the grid lines. Obviously every grid line being moveable to any location makes exactly zero musical sense.
But that should be solveable I think.
Does this idea make sense to y'all? Any thoughts or comments?
But swing is just one example of a staggered groove, there are many others. Samba 16th notes for example. Like the first few seconds of this:
There must hundreds of other examples within almost every music style.
For ALL those other options, we have "Groove Tools" or whatever. Instead of the moving grid lines. Many DAWs have such functions in some form, but for me personally every single version I've seen of this idea seems clumsy compared to the moving grid lines. It just seems like that idea should logically be extended, and it's surprising to me that I've never even seen this discussed I guess?
I imagine the challenge might lie in the interface design. There should be some sensible constraints to how the user can move the grid lines. Obviously every grid line being moveable to any location makes exactly zero musical sense.
But that should be solveable I think.
Does this idea make sense to y'all? Any thoughts or comments?
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- KVRist
- 363 posts since 24 Jul, 2006
That's pretty much how acid does it, once you've applied a groove to a track it has stretch markers that show where the grid lines will *really* be, below the track timeline itself. I think reaper also has stretch markers that could be used for that functionality, but I don't think it's hooked up in any way to the groove template system that reaper uses (which is rather opaque from the UI point of view and you really just have to trust it did what you asked, it's *as flexible* as FL's groove quantize, but not as visual about it)
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Andreya_Autumn Andreya_Autumn https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=553235
- KVRian
- 510 posts since 21 Feb, 2022
Ok good to know! Are the symmetrical/"perfect" grid lines still visible? And do quantize and snap-to-grid functions still latch on to the original lines, or only to the stretched ones? Or both?
The reaper groove tools are all non-native (SWS) right? That's what I recall. Reaper main here.
I've used them but found them to be kinda lacking too. I *really* don't like to use tempo envelope things for this, since it messes with many tempo-synced plugins. The stretch marker workflows could be fine, but I do still find it kinda clumsy.
For me, this all comes down to one thing: I'm comparing the experience of working with staggered grooves to the experience of working in even/symmetrical grooves. And so far I've always found myself wishing I could just use the same tools for both. From my (admittedly naive) perspective, it seems like the best way to do that would be to move the actual timeline grid lines around.
Within certain constraints of course. I imagine barlines should definitely stay static, since on that scale it makes more sense to think in tempo automation than "groove".
The reaper groove tools are all non-native (SWS) right? That's what I recall. Reaper main here.
I've used them but found them to be kinda lacking too. I *really* don't like to use tempo envelope things for this, since it messes with many tempo-synced plugins. The stretch marker workflows could be fine, but I do still find it kinda clumsy.
For me, this all comes down to one thing: I'm comparing the experience of working with staggered grooves to the experience of working in even/symmetrical grooves. And so far I've always found myself wishing I could just use the same tools for both. From my (admittedly naive) perspective, it seems like the best way to do that would be to move the actual timeline grid lines around.
Within certain constraints of course. I imagine barlines should definitely stay static, since on that scale it makes more sense to think in tempo automation than "groove".
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- KVRist
- 363 posts since 24 Jul, 2006
They say an image can say a thousand words, and in this situation perhaps it will help illustrate how it works...
Here there are 2 tracks, track 1 is a midi drum track (just a kick and snare) with a groove applied (the stretch markers under the inline midi display), the midi notes are placed *on the grid* straight time, and then stretched to the actual positions implied by the groove.
(the groove stretches are a little hard to see, because for some reason sony chose white-on-very-light-blue, but the white lines in the mini display correspond to the markers in the bottom display in the groove pool anyway)
The second track is the rendered form of the first track, where you can see the *actual* timing aligns to the groove stretched positions, before or after the grid lines where the notes were painted.
As to working with normal grid, I honestly have no idea, if I'm in acid it's because i'm wanting to work to a groove. I'm sure there *is* a way to turn off the groove for specific notes, but I've never had occasion to want to, or looked into how.
When you have the groove selected in the groove pool, you also get the following expanded version of the stretches displayed at the bottom of the screen:
Which also allows you to drag the markers on either side of the pre/post divide to wherever you want to tailor them.
The groove in this case was extracted from a .wav sample of a breakbeat from Bob and Earl's Harlem Shuffle
As to reaper, no real idea about if they're SWS only or not, I've used them, since also a reaper main here, but I never use reaper sans SWS, and just consider it a base part of reaper that requires a minorly-annoying extra step to install (same for reapack)
Here there are 2 tracks, track 1 is a midi drum track (just a kick and snare) with a groove applied (the stretch markers under the inline midi display), the midi notes are placed *on the grid* straight time, and then stretched to the actual positions implied by the groove.
(the groove stretches are a little hard to see, because for some reason sony chose white-on-very-light-blue, but the white lines in the mini display correspond to the markers in the bottom display in the groove pool anyway)
The second track is the rendered form of the first track, where you can see the *actual* timing aligns to the groove stretched positions, before or after the grid lines where the notes were painted.
As to working with normal grid, I honestly have no idea, if I'm in acid it's because i'm wanting to work to a groove. I'm sure there *is* a way to turn off the groove for specific notes, but I've never had occasion to want to, or looked into how.
When you have the groove selected in the groove pool, you also get the following expanded version of the stretches displayed at the bottom of the screen:
Which also allows you to drag the markers on either side of the pre/post divide to wherever you want to tailor them.
The groove in this case was extracted from a .wav sample of a breakbeat from Bob and Earl's Harlem Shuffle
As to reaper, no real idea about if they're SWS only or not, I've used them, since also a reaper main here, but I never use reaper sans SWS, and just consider it a base part of reaper that requires a minorly-annoying extra step to install (same for reapack)